E321 - Let's try that announcement again...

(A) E321 - Let's try that announcement again...

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[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Nick Roome: No, Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Human Factors Cast. This is episode 321. This is a very special episode. We're recording this live on July 2nd, 2026. As I said, this is Human Factors Cast. I'm your host, Nick Rome, and I'm joined today by Mr. Barry Kirby.

[00:00:20] Nick Roome: Barry, how are you?

[00:00:22] Barry Kirby: I'm very good. More importantly, how are you?

[00:00:25] Nick Roome: I'm doing great. W- we do have a great show for you tonight. Before we start I want to address something. We've been off for a month. Part of this has been scheduling, part of this has been psychological. If you have not been following us on social platforms, what has happened, , was that we tried to announce this one time, and, , what quickly happened was a live demonstration of the downfalls of not taking medication and, uh, a live case study of watching withdrawals happen in real time.

[00:00:57] Nick Roome: Uh, it was very scary at the time. I am [00:01:00] okay. I think the last words that I said on that stream were, "I need to consult a medical professional," and then I cut the stream, and then, uh, w- I mean, we were only on for, what, like 40 minutes or something like that? It was, uh, not very long at all. So we didn't do the show the way that we wanted to do the show.

[00:01:15] Nick Roome: We didn't do this announcement in the way that we wanted to do this announcement. Y- you know, we're, we're do- we're doing the reshoots right now. We're doing it again, and I think we're gonna do it the way that, uh, that we want to do it. That is putting the, um The, the, that piece up front.

[00:01:32] Nick Roome: Now that that's behind us we, we got some programming notes here. One thing that if you aren't aware, is that ASPIRE is happening later this year, and we are gonna be there. We have a paper that we have submitted and talking about how we have done podcasting over the last 10 years in, in, uh, the human factors domain.

[00:01:55] Nick Roome: And I think, um, you know, what's interesting about this is it's going to be an alternative [00:02:00] format. So it's not gonna be just your, uh, run-of-the-mill panel presentation, 20 minutes. This will be a live podcast episode happening a live recording of the podcast and, and we'd love for you to be there. We'd love for you to attend and show up and be part of this special thing.

[00:02:14] Nick Roome: Uh, so we would love to have you... We'll have more details about scheduling and all that stuff later. But if you're, if you're making plans for ASPIRE this year, uh, we would love to see you on stage. That'd be so much fun. Barry what's going on in your neck of the woods?

[00:02:28] Barry Kirby: So around with us, we've ha- had the launch of IEA 2027.

[00:02:32] Barry Kirby: So if you're unaware, the IEA runs a, a triennial con- congress, and it's coming to London in 2027, which is hugely exciting. Though in my roles with some other, other hats on, um, it's also become immediately terrifying because I'm now the treasurer of this thing, and so the financial implications are hitting home really hard.

[00:02:52] Barry Kirby: Um, but fundamentally- ... tickets are now on sale, and there's some early bird prices. So if you're looking to get, uh, grab that early deal for [00:03:00] you, your team, your company you go along to iea2027.com and that's where you'll find everything about tickets. If you wanna write a paper then you need to start scribbling that, uh, your notes and, and get that structured and in because they need to be in by the 1st of November.

[00:03:15] Barry Kirby: And unlike other conferences, there will be no slippage. It's a big international conference, so they, you know, we need to be organized. Things need to be done. So don't leave it to the last minute. Write get that, get them conference papers in because without the conference papers, there is no conference.

[00:03:31] Barry Kirby: Um, yeah, I'm really, really looking forward to that. And I think, Nick, we have a bit of a a bit of an overview video, something of that

[00:03:39] Nick Roome: nature- Oh ... that we've stuck- Oh, do we? ... somewhere else. Okay. All right. Take it away

[00:03:42] Phil Doyon: Cannot wait. Be there

[00:03:44] Nick Roome: Well I noticed one of the people in that video. I recognized them

[00:03:47] Barry Kirby: It's, uh, it's almost like some people get around more than they really should.

[00:03:51] Nick Roome: Uh, yeah. I, I'm excited for that. We're, uh... Is it too early to say that we're working on something for that too?

[00:03:56] Barry Kirby: Well, we'll... I don't know yet.

[00:03:58] Barry Kirby: We're...

[00:03:58] Nick Roome: Something.

[00:03:59] Barry Kirby: We, we... There, [00:04:00] there's gonna... There, there's something in the background, something in the works, and hopefully we'll, um, you might see a bit more of us.

[00:04:04] Nick Roome: Well, yeah. Hopefully you will see more of us and, um, iea2027.com. So, uh, that'll, that'll be exciting. All right. Is it time? Is it time?

[00:04:13] Nick Roome: Can we do it? Let's

[00:04:14] Barry Kirby: do it.

[00:04:14] Nick Roome: We do it. We do the thing. All right.

[00:04:16] Nick Roome: All right. Yes, it's that part of the show again. It's time for Human Factors News. Mr. Barry Kirby let's take it away and do it right this time. What's our story this week?

[00:04:26] Barry Kirby: Well, tonight's news segment is a little different, though if you saw it last time we announced this live, then it's not that different.

[00:04:33] Barry Kirby: But regardless, it's still very special for us because usually on this show, we spend our time talking about how human factors shapes the world around us, technology, safety, aerospace, UX, healthcare, AI, all the way humans interact with increasingly complex systems. We are normally very outward-looking, trying to make sense of the news in the world from a human factors perspective.

[00:04:52] Barry Kirby: But tonight, we are turning that lens back upon ourselves. After years of building this community, producing content, covering [00:05:00] conferences, interviewing experts, and working to make human factors more accessible to more people, Human Factors Cast has taken its next big step and transitioned into a nonprofit foundation.

[00:05:11] Barry Kirby: And for us, this is a really important moment, not just for the show, but for the wider human factors community. Because human factors still has a visibility problem, both within our community and for those outside looking in. And one of the things the Human Factors Cast has always tried to do is to make the discipline more open, more approachable, and more connected, whether you're an experienced practitioner, a student, or someone who's just discovered the field for the first time.

[00:05:38] Barry Kirby: So moving to a nonprofit model is- isn't just an organizational change. It's really about doubling down on the commitment we have made to our community. More education, more outreach, more opportunities for the community involvement, supporting emerging practitioners, and creating genuinely useful human factors content without being driven purely by commercial pressure.

[00:05:59] Barry Kirby: And honestly, in a, [00:06:00] in a world increasingly shaped by AI, automation, autonomy, and digital systems, the need for strong human factors thinking has never been greater. So tonight, we want to take a bit of time to talk about what this transition means, where we want to take it next, and why building a strong human factors community really matters, and most importantly, what this means to you Nick, you must be really proud of this next step.

[00:06:24] Barry Kirby: What does it mean to you?

[00:06:25] Nick Roome: Uh, look Ma, uh, we're in the news. Oh, this is very cool, and I think, uh, I can actually sit here and not have to worry about my health this time as I say, yes, I am very proud of this. And I think, uh, as we have been doing this over the years we have grown. So we started as a small podcast in 2016.

[00:06:47] Nick Roome: As the years went on, we became bigger. People started listening. People always listened, but peop- you know, the effects started to reach us more. You know, we, we got invited to HFES to come [00:07:00] and cover the event. We've been to other conferences since, and, um, have done conference coverage.

[00:07:06] Nick Roome: And then, uh, you know, beyond that, we've started the lab. The lab kind of grew out of the podcast. And I think this next step here is a great way to go even further, right? We have now, three sort of main components. We have the podcast, we have the lab, and we have the foundation. And, and as, as we're talking about the nonprofit here, I think we should probably show the logo.

[00:07:31] Nick Roome: There you go. Human Factors Cast Foundation, and, um, that, that is our logo for our nonprofit. I know you can't see our faces right now. And one, one thing that I kind of wanted to do but refrained from was, like, a fake announcement that we're gonna do some sort of, Human Factors Cast...

[00:07:49] Nick Roome: What everybody's talking about right now, Human Factors Cast AI. We're not doing that. We're actually doing this. That, that's the logo. And, uh, I don't know. I've I'm [00:08:00] rambling here. These are supposed to be initial thoughts. Sorry for the ramble. Barry, what are your initial thoughts on this?

[00:08:06] Barry Kirby: I mean, for me, I think it's a fanta- fantastic time to reflect on the journey, and I would say pretty much your journey in this because I am just one of many co-hosts that you've had along the way. Though I might be one of the longest standing at the moment, I think.

[00:08:21] Nick Roome: I think so.

[00:08:22] Barry Kirby: But w- from where you started off with that initial idea, that initial spark, that initial drive to do something different, 'cause nobody else was doing it at the time to then be over that, over the past 10 years working, like I say, with, with many different people, the different supporters that have been there along the way, not only co-hosts, but also people who come on as guests, people

[00:08:43] Barry Kirby: I mean, some of the, when you look at some of the different things, the town halls you've done, that's a world first. Nobody's ever done that before. The way that we've engaged with conferences and actually doing live interviews at conferences and things like that. The lab itself, I mean, the, the community that you've built up on Discord and it also runs [00:09:00] outside of Discord as well.

[00:09:01] Barry Kirby: But the ability to have that almost safe space to go to when you see something crazy in the HF world and you can just tap it into our community and say, "Has anybody seen this? What do you think?" Or, I need some ideas for something. Can anybody come up with something?" And something we will probably announce in the next next few weeks, we hope coming with so- with a rather crazier idea.

[00:09:18] Barry Kirby: And not everybody go, "Whoa, that ... Whoa, wh- where do you think you're going?" Everybody just turns around and say, " Yes, let's do." Everyone has such a can-do attitude and that comes from the leadership that, that you give them on, on that weekly basis. And then when we look at where we're at now, this, there's, there are a few podcasts out there, but I think this is probably the only one that works internationally the way that it does.

[00:09:40] Barry Kirby: It is ... I'm truly proud to be part of an international colla- collaboration in delivering this. And then just for the crazy discussions that we have outside, we, we have these recordings, and those who watch us live know that we do a pre-show and a post-show, and who knows where them discussions go.

[00:09:55] Barry Kirby: And that's part of the fun of this. It can either be just me and you having a, [00:10:00] having a bit of a laugh, or you've got people coming in with their comments about what they think about the story we're gonna talk about. And the, the way that we evolve this, it's so, it, it's so natural the way it comes about because people can make a comment and change the shape of the show we can, we can do all our planning, we can do our some weeks we do planning well early in the week.

[00:10:20] Barry Kirby: Other weeks we might do it two, with two months to go. But the... If somebody makes a comment and says, "Oh, have you thought about this?" Or, "I've seen this," that can shape the entire flavor of the show. Um, either before we go on air and we do some rewriting, we include people in, or people can come in and we've facilitated people to come in and comment live on what they see and give us their almost unredacted view.

[00:10:43] Barry Kirby: Knowing that they can come in here, they can talk, you've created a safe space for people to come in and, and make them, make, and make them comments, which in today's world is such a valuable thing. So again, my sort of rambling thought, but I would start off by saying well done to you for getting us [00:11:00] to where we are now.

[00:11:01] Barry Kirby: And here's to hopefully more than another 10 years in what in where this foundation is gonna take us.

[00:11:07] Nick Roome: Yeah. So I think, um, well, thank you for the kind words. I need to pause and acknowledge those because I'm very good at just saying, "Oh, it's a team effort," and it is. Thank you. I appreciate the words that they're very kind and very meaningful.

[00:11:20] Nick Roome: I, um, I think the thing that everybody I'm guessing that everybody wants to know is what hap- what, what's happening with the podcast? Are we still doing it? Is it still a thing? Yes. The podcast is not going anywhere. This is not changing. This is just one outlet of it- Yeah

[00:11:35] Nick Roome: it's one way to communicate with people, and it is still obviously one of our major outlets. We are still going to produce shows very regularly. Barring scheduling conflicts or medical emergencies. I think there are still some the... let's actually, this is something we seldom do, but let's talk about how everything is kind of organized.

[00:11:56] Nick Roome: So it started with the podcast and then it got bigger. We [00:12:00] st- we wanted to work on other projects. We wanted to do, uh, different podcasts and experiment with those. We wanted to do different, uh, formats of, of media. We have a lot of things baking right now. We have user experience points.

[00:12:11] Nick Roome: It's another project that's out there right now. Episode three, live now. Slay the Spire. So there's a lot of different projects that we have going on, and all that was born from the lab, and the lab was born from the podcast, but now the podcast is part of the lab because it is, in itself, an a project.

[00:12:27] Nick Roome: And so if you think about the relationship between the digital media lab and the podcast, the podcast is one tiny element of the lab because we do so many other things. Okay. Now, if you're thinking about the lab and the foundation the foundation is literally that, and that's why we called it a foundation, is because it is, it is meant to be a base plate that we build off of.

[00:12:52] Nick Roome: The lab is one thing that can socket onto that base plate, but then there are sort of other things that we can socket on as [00:13:00] well. But to be clear here, the, the foundation actually gives us a lot of different options that we didn't have before. So one of the... I should probably talk about why we're doing this.

[00:13:11] Nick Roome: It's not uh, uh, we're a 501[c][3] nonprofit recognized by the United States government, State of Arizona, all that stuff. But beyond that, what it really means is that, If you donate to us, if you, if you give to us on Patreon we have a Givebutter campaign that if you want to donate to us and help support us for a year's funding of, uh, our operating costs, you know, you, you absolutely can do that.

[00:13:36] Nick Roome: What all that money goes to traditionally has been things like the podcast production, and some of that still will go towards that. But I think, bigger, broader vision for what we want to do is we really want to start working on things that advance communication within the human factor space because let's be honest, this field is kind of terrible at marketing itself, and it's really bad [00:14:00] at explaining what we do, and we need to change that in a lot of ways, right?

[00:14:04] Nick Roome: And part of that is the podcast, part of that is these other experimental media that we're that we're doing, but also another part of that is applying for grants to do actual research. And the thing with actual research s- scientific research is that you can't really do it if you're not a real entity.

[00:14:25] Nick Roome: We tried partnering with institutions before, and they were like, "Hey, are you, like, an official... is this official or, like, you know, what?" And so part of it is just standing it up so that way we can say, "Yes, it is official. Let's partner. Let's do science. Let's advance the field of human factors communication."

[00:14:43] Nick Roome: It's a passion of all of us in the lab. It's a passion of all of us at the foundation, and really, that is why we did the thing. Beyond that, I, I would love to see a day where we're taking in so many donations that we can afford to send send undergrads or graduates to, uh, [00:15:00] HFES or other conferences on a scholarship, uh, stipend, you know, those type of things to, to get them out there, get them engaged.

[00:15:07] Nick Roome: Would love to do all those things. Those are, like, in our long-term roadmap. But I think that kind of just gives you... The foundation is the base. We socket things onto the base, like scientific research and the lab and the lab is sort of the vehicle through which some of those things get experimented on and worked on.

[00:15:27] Nick Roome: And again, the podcast is just one sliver of all those things because we've grown, and so we need to put on our big boy pants and, uh, and grow.

[00:15:36] Barry Kirby: And grow we will. Um, I mean, I think you talked a bit there about how it all comes together and, and how it all, um, how it all plays and how we do good things.

[00:15:45] Barry Kirby: But one thing that you've done with the foundation, or thing we've done with the foundation, is rest it on core values, which when you go through them, they- they're obvious in many ways. But that's because they're obvious to us, and it's [00:16:00] what we do on a, the day-to-day basis of what we're doing. But do you want to run through the core values and why you think they're important to, that everybody else appreciates why we have them there?

[00:16:10] Nick Roome: Sure. A lot of companies have these core values. A lot of a lot of institutions have core values, and it's an interesting exercise to go through and really try to think about what is important to you as a, an entity a thing. And so yeah, let's, let's talk about them because we did put a lot of effort into this, and we want to live by this as the foundation grows.

[00:16:36] Nick Roome: Accessi- I'm gonna go through the list, and then maybe we can talk through particular ones that catch our interest, but accessibility. You know, making sure that human factors is understandable and accessible to people, not only within our field, but outside our field. So making human factors accessible outside of those professional spaces.

[00:16:52] Nick Roome: Uh, so making those ideas clear and easy to apply. Scientific in- integrity. So I mentioned research. Yes, we're [00:17:00] getting into the research game. We're already there, but, but I think, part of it is, is conducting our own research, but also part of it is translating human factors research to be easily consumable.

[00:17:11] Nick Roome: Not overstating claims or stripping away meaning from some of the things because a lot of the stuff that we do is focused on very tiny aspects of it. We don't want to be like traditional media outlets and sensationalize these things. Let's actually talk about what they really mean and not what what's popular and is gonna get a lot of clicks.

[00:17:31] Nick Roome: Uh, public education. You know, one thing that we're focused on here is, is to look at how we're talking about human factors in the public and how people understand psychology, engineering, ergonomics, and design, and how those fields actually change the systems that we're using every day, the systems and products that we're using every day.

[00:17:53] Nick Roome: So making sure that people understand what our role is in that. Experimentation is another core [00:18:00] value here. So we're, w- you'll know that we're no stranger to experimenting with different formats. We have a podcast. We have several different podcasts with different types of formats. And we have formats beyond that.

[00:18:13] Nick Roome: Then we're, we're really excited to sort of, Learn about how some of these formats can help us communicate human factors more efficiently or better, or, you know. Is somebody gonna respond to a Cr- Chris Wickens thirst trap video better than, a 10-minute explainer on signal detection theory?

[00:18:32] Nick Roome: I don't know, but hey, if, if someone gets into human factors because of Chris Wickens' thirst trap video, then we've done something. Community. Uh, this one's a big one, something that we're always pushing is obviously we have our Discord community, but broader than that, you know, we have our community in human factors, and that's practitioners researchers, students the educators.

[00:18:53] Nick Roome: Even beyond that, designers and communicators and other people who are curious about the field, right? We want to build a [00:19:00] community that is inclusive and not exclusive to the point where people are telling you you're doing it wrong because you don't understand. That's not the vibe we're going for.

[00:19:09] Nick Roome: We, we wanna be yes, anders. Yes, and have you thought about it this way? Transparency. Uh, obviously we wanna be clear, communicate our goals, methods, projects. We wanna grow sustainably. That's another core value. And so we there was a point where I think of it as... You know, s- you've heard the theory of the Big Bang and then the big snap back where a- apparently everything gets so big that it snaps back.

[00:19:32] Nick Roome: I feel like we had to snap back at some point because we got so many different threads going that we snapped back to basics. We wanna make sure that we're sustainable going forward. And then this one's a no-brainer, the last one here, passion for human factors. We all know the power human factors has in our everyday lives.

[00:19:50] Nick Roome: We know what it can do for things like safety. We know what it can do for performance. We know what it can do for usability. We know what it can do for accessibility. And so [00:20:00] let's use that passion to drive what we do in the foundation in terms of the research that we conduct, the media that we put out there, and the community work that we do.

[00:20:11] Nick Roome: So those are our core values. And I know, I know some of that's a little boring to go through. I know. I get it. We're excited about it because we put a lot of effort into it, and it was a really good exercise for us. But really, we, we do try to live by those, and like you said, Barry, a lot of them are self-explanatory because it's what we do already.

[00:20:29] Barry Kirby: I mean, it's interesting. You said it right at the top, you know, a lot of companies have core values and, and quite right too. I think there's some here that Um, I think all of these are timeless in many ways, that throughout the time going forward, we'll be able to pull on them as levers at different times.

[00:20:45] Barry Kirby: They'll, they'll give us different strengths as we're going forward. Particularly at the moment, I think there is definitely something around scientific integrity, education, and transparency, that we have issues around the world where [00:21:00] people are not believing what they see, or they're not, they're, they're seeing stuff on things like social media and things like that, and maybe be- maybe being unduly influenced in, in believing things that just aren't true or lack integrity. So I think the fact that for this moment in time where we're at, that whole point about integrity, education, and transparency is possibly boring but also absolutely crucial to what we're doing.

[00:21:27] Barry Kirby: Because everybody in professional institutes should be driving towards this and striving towards it. But given what we're doing in this foundation about being a communications foundation, about be- it's not just about the quality of the science that is going on, it's about how it is being communicated, and communicated in auth- on- in an authentic, real, and transparent way.

[00:21:49] Barry Kirby: And so we have to acknowledge our- ourselves at just how important this is at this moment in time

[00:21:56] Nick Roome: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Barry Kirby: But talking about that whole transparency piece, we, [00:22:00] you mentioned at the earlier about it being this is a charitable foundation, and you wrote, you you've got them the numbers of the, what type of foundation it is or ty- type of charitable organization that is LICKD.

[00:22:11] Barry Kirby: You clearly, um, have been doing a lot of reading of them same set of numbers for, for quite a while now. You mentioned the, the financial aspects of that. But fundamentally what does this change for the finances? What, what could we do now that we couldn't do before?

[00:22:24] Nick Roome: So let's talk about finances.

[00:22:26] Nick Roome: So, let me talk about first what what we can do with what we already have, and then let me talk about sort of the future here. So we already have some, excuse me, some mechanisms in place to help support funding the show. If you've listened for a long time, you know that we have a Patreon account.

[00:22:46] Nick Roome: You are still more than welcome to donate to that Patreon account. And, um, y- you can still get all of, uh, the, the same benefits that you would get from doing that normally. If you want to just [00:23:00] give out of the kindness of your heart, we haven't really had, I mean, we, we do, but we don't really have a good outlet for that.

[00:23:08] Nick Roome: And so, with y- God, I hate asking for money. Go figure uh, somebody who is, um, putting on a, a 501[c][3] Foundation is asking for money, uh, and hates doing it. So anyway, I'll just put this up there. If you wanna donate, you can. This is a campaign for us to fund one year of, uh, the foundation.

[00:23:27] Nick Roome: Obviously anything helps. You can donate one time or monthly. We use this platform because as a, as a 501[c][3] nonprofit, they actually they don't take as much from us as other platforms do. And look, i- if you go to that link, you can actually see at the bottom, we are a verified public charity, which is cool.

[00:23:46] Nick Roome: And it's, uh, it has the employment identification number down there and everything, and you can write us off on your taxes if you wanna donate big. Please donate big. I- if you donate, uh, you know, just give what... Do what you can. And so let's talk about [00:24:00] what, uh, we can do with what we have already.

[00:24:02] Nick Roome: So thank you to everybody who supports us on Patreon already. That is great. That will continue us operating as normal. And in fact, switching to a 501[c][3] has actually already got us some big perks, right? We get we get access to some free resources that we didn't before. Uh, so, and I, I think a lot of this tech company stuff they give you access to the licenses and then they get to write it off because they can say it's worth a certain amount and, um, they can write it off themselves.

[00:24:31] Nick Roome: So we get access to things like, uh, the Atlassian Suite. We get access to like Google Workspace. We get access to the Canva Pro. You know, like we get access to a lot of really cool things for free just for being a nonprofit, which is great. And I think that will go a long way to help us do new exciting things when it comes to when it comes to our production, uh, and, and our research and our communication strategy.

[00:24:56] Nick Roome: And, if we had more money, obviously that, that could change in [00:25:00] more dramatic ways. I think, uh, you heard some of the roadmap earlier when it comes to us helping support others. I would love to help give back to the community in terms of allowing for people who are interested in the field of human factors who maybe don't know a whole lot about it to go to HFES or any other conference nearby or something just to hear what it's all about.

[00:25:22] Nick Roome: Like how cool would that be to get somebody who's like adjacent and interested in the field and then they go and then they find out about all the goodness that happens in the field and that'd be cool. So the more that you donate, the more that we can do stuff like that. We also obviously would use it for things like research.

[00:25:40] Nick Roome: So anyway, money. Money, eh is a thing. But you can, you can click on, uh... you can go to our our little link here again and see sort of, uh, where we're at in the funding for a year, and obviously we just launched this. We're, So oh, $50 already. Thank you. Uh, if only I had some sort of on-screen element that would tie [00:26:00] in to, uh, when people donate and have it sh- you know, show up on screen.

[00:26:04] Nick Roome: That would be that'd be really cool. I don't know if I can trigger it right now, but anyway, some- something like that would be really neat. But yeah. Anyway, uh, that, that's the financial situation. As we're talking about transparency, we, we do get some discounts now as 501[c][3], which is great, so discounts on some of our operating costs.

[00:26:22] Nick Roome: There, there's a lot of cool things. Actually, uh, I'll talk to you in the post-show about this one, but there's a really cool thing that's that I can do as the 501[c][3] that I probably shouldn't say in the main show.

[00:26:33] Barry Kirby: Hang around for the post-show. So but just to be clear, we've, we've sort of joked around in the past how some of the Patreon stuff would get me my new car.

[00:26:43] Barry Kirby: This still is not get- gonna get me anywhere closer to my new car, is it?

[00:26:46] Nick Roome: Oh, no. You can't, you can't touch this money. No, this, this money is, uh... this is, um... This money is gonna be audited by the IRS no.

[00:26:54] Barry Kirby: So you mentioned, you know, again what's that number you keep quoting?

[00:26:58] Nick Roome: 5- [00:27:00] 501[c][3].

[00:27:00] Barry Kirby: There we go. How do people... Is there a way that people can go and check, I think you mentioned it earlier the, with the JIT, um- Oh, yeah ... to make a... How, how do they go and if they wanted to go and check that we are doing what we're talking about where...

[00:27:13] Barry Kirby: is there an official website or something that they can go and check?

[00:27:16] Nick Roome: I mean, you can go to humanfactorscast.com. That's, that's still there. We don't have any official m- media on there related to the foundation yet. That's on our roadmap to do. We just started this year, so I mean, you know, we still got a lot to do.

[00:27:28] Nick Roome: Yeah. The the things that you- The,

[00:27:30] Barry Kirby: the IR- the IRS must have something.

[00:27:32] Nick Roome: The IRS does have something. You can go check the IRS employment identification number lookup and look for Human Factors Cast Foundation. We'll pop up. It'll say we're a 501[c][3] charity. It's pretty cool.

[00:27:44] Barry Kirby: I'm almost scared to do that.

[00:27:46] Barry Kirby: So I guess we, I'm, we, I guess we're gonna have to wrap this bit up soon, but if people wanna get involved, I mean, this isn't a closed community. We, we, uh, we go on about this all the time, but it's absolutely worth repeating that, you know, get involved in the Discord, get involved in [00:28:00] the lab, get involved in just come and join on here.

[00:28:03] Barry Kirby: They can, that is still all open to, a- all open to everybody. There is no change just because we've got this foundation in place now. People c- we are still an open door. I- is that a fair thing to say?

[00:28:13] Nick Roome: Oh, that's absolutely fair to say. Yes, we are still, still the same same stuff different day.

[00:28:19] Nick Roome: I don't know. It's, um... Really we are we really are just trying to, trying our best to make sure that we can do all the things that we want to do, and that we can do them responsibly, and that we can do them by that that's in a way that's kosher. So that way folks can, uh, can know that if they're donating to us, they're donating to you know, an official charity, all that stuff.

[00:28:42] Nick Roome: Uh- Yeah ... or that, uh, the stuff that we're doing will be will be... What's the word I'm looking for here? Legit. You know, in terms of other things, like, uh, I'm sure there's a lot of I, I don't I probably am not actually sure how much excitement there is around understanding who's on the board of a [00:29:00] non-profit, but stuff like that will come later.

[00:29:01] Nick Roome: We have, we have our board, but we're not releasing that yet at this time if only because we are still waiting on some paperwork. But, uh, we have our board, which is very exciting. We have you know, all our projects in the works. Yeah, super cool stuff. And, um, here, in case anyone was, uh, was doubting I guess I can just show this here.

[00:29:23] Nick Roome: Here you go. Look at that. Boom. That's- There, there you go. There you go. We are verified with the IRS. Isn't that cool? Uh, anyway, that's, uh, uh, I don't know. That, I've, feels kind of like a humble brag, but it's not really a... Anyway

[00:29:38] Barry Kirby: Oh, can we give them feedback on their website? Can we do it? Can we do that one? Ho show.

[00:29:42] Nick Roome: Ho show. Let's do it. Okay. Yeah so that's the nonprofit. We're legit. We're doing lots of fun stuff. We got a lot of ongoings, and obviously there are many ways to help support us. Donating money is one of those ways.

[00:29:55] Nick Roome: Joining the Discord and engaging with our community is another one of those [00:30:00] ways. I think, uh, if you want to engage with the show live, like Barry said you can absolutely change the course of a show by leaving us a voicemail by all that stuff. Again, if you wanna support us on Patreon and get something back, you can do that, too.

[00:30:17] Nick Roome: And then obviously if you want to get involved and volunteer your time, which is the most, most valuable resource that I never take for granted, uh, all the people in the lab I really appreciate them donating their time to this crazy little thing we call Human Factors Communication. And so you can absolutely help, help by donating your time and volunteering with the lab.

[00:30:41] Nick Roome: So yeah lots of cool ways to get involved. And you know what, I'll even go out on a limb here and say if you are an undergrad or a graduate student who is looking for, like, a summer internship, it's volunteer, but it is with a 501[c][3] nonprofit, so you can say that

[00:30:56] Barry Kirby: If you remember the numbers, uh, you absolutely can.

[00:30:58] Nick Roome: All right. Okay. Any [00:31:00] other, uh, parting words here on the nonprofit news, Barry?

[00:31:04] Barry Kirby: Only to say I think I think it's a momentous step. It's a really crucial occasion. Um, so good that we had to announce it twice. Um, I'm just, I'm proud to be part of the journey, so yeah, it's brilliant.

[00:31:17] Nick Roome: Yes. Okay. Cool.

[00:31:19] Nick Roome: Uh, there's, there's an official press release on our website under news if you wanna go read it there. Yes, we're very excited about this and hope that you all are as excited uh, with us about this change. Uh, it's, it's very cool. Um, so, so thank you to our friends over at Human Factors Cast for our news story this week.

[00:31:36] Nick Roome: If you wanna follow along, we do post the links to all the original articles in our Discord, or you can join us for more discussion on these stories and much more. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be back to see what's going on in the last few weeks of aviation right after this.

[00:31:54] Announcer: ~Human Factors Cast brings you the best in human factors news, interviews, conference coverage, and overall fun conversations into each and every episode we produce, but we can't do it without you.~

[00:31:54] Announcer: ~The Human Factors Cast network is 100% listener supported. All the funds that go into running the show come from our listeners. Our patrons are our priority, and we want to ensure we're giving back to you for supporting us. Pledges start at just $1 per month and include rewards like access to our weekly Q&As with the hosts, personalized professional reviews, and Human Factors Minute, a Patreon-only weekly podcast where the hosts break down unique, obscure, and interesting human factors topics in just one minute.~

[00:31:54] Announcer: ~Patreon rewards are always evolving, so stop by patreon.com/humanfactorscast to see what support level may be right for you. Thank you, and remember, it depends.~

[00:31:54] Nick Roome: Yes, of course. I don't like asking for money, so I'll just have the commercial do it. Yes huge thank you to our patrons. You've [00:32:00] kept us afloat for these last few years, and truly have supported the mission of science communication in the field of human factors more than you may know. Truly thank you.

[00:32:11] Nick Roome: So it's no surprise that we've been gone for a month, which means we've missed a couple episodes, which means our friends over at the Aerospace Systems Technical Group, uh, have sent us several files. So you're actually gonna get a couple of back-to-back This Week in Aerospace with some varied topics.

[00:32:30] Nick Roome: Very exciting, so take it away, Phil

[00:32:34] Phil Doyon: All right, thanks Nick and Barry. Uh, this is Phil from the Aerospace System Technical Group at HFES. A quick update on the show. Elena is deep into writing her thesis, so she's taking a short break from the podcast. In the meantime, I'm really glad to be joined by Andra

[00:32:50] Andra Mahu: Mahu. Hey, thank you for having me. So I'm happy to be here.

[00:32:53] Andra Mahu: There's actually a lot happening right now around supersonic flight in the US, so we thought it would be a good moment to bring everyone up [00:33:00] to speed.

[00:33:00] Phil Doyon: So in March of this year, the US House of Representative voted to lift the ban on supersonic flight over land. It's a ban that has been in place since 1973.

[00:33:11] Phil Doyon: If the Senate also approves it, the legislation would give the FAA about a year to establish rules allowing civil aircraft to exceed Mach 1 over land, as long as no sonic boom reaches the ground.

[00:33:24] Andra Mahu: And speaking of the ban, it was put in place because sonic booms generate loud and intense shock waves that startle people and can cause damage to buildings, such as breaking the windows.

[00:33:34] Andra Mahu: And since the plane's flying faster than the sound, the people that are on board don't hear the boom, but everyone else in range does.

[00:33:40] Phil Doyon: And so in research, I found out that the original ban went back to a pretty controversial set of sonic boom tests in Oklahoma City. For about six months, starting in February 1964, supersonic aircraft flew over Oklahoma City multiple times a day, sometimes up to eight sonic booms daily, [00:34:00] to study both structural impacts and public reaction, and the outcome was not good.

[00:34:06] Phil Doyon: There were close to 10,000 complaints about property damage, things like broken windows, cracked plaster. But more importantly, public reaction was strongly negative. Around 15,000 residents filed complaints, lawsuit or protest letters. The FAA mishandling of communication didn't help either. Many felt that their concern were dismissed.

[00:34:28] Phil Doyon: Political support eroded quickly, and that ultimately led lawmakers to ban supersonic flight over land.

[00:34:35] Andra Mahu: But wait, what about Concorde? It was flying to New York until the early 2000s, no? Wasn't that supersonic?

[00:34:40] Phil Doyon: It was, but only part of the way. So the ban specifically applies to overland flight in the US.

[00:34:46] Phil Doyon: So the Concorde would go supersonic over the At- the Atlantic, but then it will slow down to subsonic speeds before reaching the, uh, US coastlines. And just to be precise, civilian supersonic flight isn't completely prohibited today. [00:35:00] It's allowed under a special flight authorization from the FAA. But that's granted on a case-by-case basis rather than routine operations.

[00:35:08] Andra Mahu: And this is why the new supersonic aircraft that's currently in development are looking at ways to reduce the sonic boom. So the most exciting program right now is built by NASA and Lockheed Martin, and the experimental aircraft is called the X-59 QueSST, which stands for Quiet Supersonic Technology.

[00:35:24] Andra Mahu: This program has two goals. First is to build an aircraft that's able to fly faster than the speed of sound without generating a sonic boom, and the second is to fly it over several US communities in order to measure how people actually perceive that sound. And then using this data, regulators can then set new noise limits for supersonic flight, which could open the doors for commercial cargo and also passenger travel.

[00:35:46] Andra Mahu: Flight testing began in October 2025, and they're actively undergoing flight tests in California, and they recently completed 10 flights. So far, the X-59 has only flown subsonically, reaching .95 Mach, but they're targeting 1.4 Mach for [00:36:00] their mission.

[00:36:00] Phil Doyon: All right, and so what is their secret solution to reduce the aircraft's sonic boom?

[00:36:04] Phil Doyon: You know, did they shrink the engines?

[00:36:06] Andra Mahu: So the answer is the unusual shape of the aircraft. Uh, the aircraft has, like, a thin needle-like nose which accounts for almost a third of its length, and essentially what this does, it helps break up the shock waves that would usually result in a sonic boom. From the ground, the sonic thump will be in the range of 60 to 75 decibels, which is similar to a car door closing when you're 20 feet away.

[00:36:27] Andra Mahu: Due to the unusual aircraft configuration, however, the cockpit is located almost halfway down the length of the aircraft, and it also doesn't have a forward-facing window. So instead, the QueSST team developed the external vision system, which is a series of high-resolution cameras that are feeding in a 4K monitor in the cockpit.

[00:36:47] Phil Doyon: Uh, oh, hold on a second. You mean, uh, the, the pilot cannot look outside while flying?

[00:36:51] Andra Mahu: That's right. So there's no forward-facing window. The 4K monitor serves as a central window and allows the pilot to safely see the traffic and their flight path. [00:37:00] It also provides additional visual aids for airport approaches, landings, and also takeoffs.

[00:37:04] Andra Mahu: This monitor also displays the video feed from two cameras outside of the aircraft, combined with terrain data from an advanced computing system.

[00:37:11] Phil Doyon: Wow. You know, that's very surprising. Um, I remember from my days at Bombardier working on flight deck design, one of the core human factors tasks that we had was to verify the pilot's forward field of view, and that was called, uh, Regulation 25.773.

[00:37:27] Phil Doyon: Now, there's guidance material that comes with that, and you will see that there are diagrams showing the volume of space that the pilot needs to see from their eye position, and it's not small. It's actually a pretty wide and deep field of view, especially forward and downward toward the runway environment.

[00:37:45] Phil Doyon: Now, that requirement is a big reason why cockpit windows are so large as they are. But those large windows, well, they come with trade-offs. So it affects the aerodynamics, and one consequence is that the peak wind noise [00:38:00] tends to sit right above the pilot's head. If you could shrink the forward window, you w- you would actually be able to push that noise source further aft, which would improve the acoustic environment in the cockpit.

[00:38:13] Phil Doyon: But of course, doing that would normally reduce the pilot direct outside view, and that's where you run into a certification constraint. So traditionally you're balancing visibility, aerodynamics, comfort, all within the regul- regulatory limits. Uh, when you look at something like the X-59 which essentially replaced a forward window with a synthetic vision system, that's a pretty fundamental shift.

[00:38:39] Phil Doyon: So what are pilots saying about flying like that? Basically relying on a 4K display instead of direct out the, out of the window view.

[00:38:47] Andra Mahu: So actually it's quite interesting, but pilots have grown comfortable using it. So NASA conducted a lot of flight testing to compare this video technology to actual forward windows in order to ensure that it provides the performance and safety levels that's [00:39:00] equivalent to or even better than forward-facing windows.

[00:39:03] Andra Mahu: And NASA even quoted one of its pilots saying that in the unlikely event of a display failure, he can even land the airplane with the system turned off, basically relying on his vision, vision through the aircraft side windows.

[00:39:15] Phil Doyon: And NASA isn't the only one pushing into this new generation of supersonic aircraft.

[00:39:21] Phil Doyon: You've also got Boom Supersonic, which is developing a commercial airliner designed to carry about 60 to 80 passengers with a target entry into service toward the end of the dec- decade. Their demonstrator, the XB-1, has already completed flight testing, including supersonic runs where no sonic boom were heard from ground level.

[00:39:42] Phil Doyon: They took advantage of what is known as the Mach cutoff, where atmospheric conditions refract the shockwaves away from the surface. And on a different front, there's Hermeus working on their Quarterhorse MD2. It's designed as the first remotely piloted [00:40:00] supersonic aircraft. All right, so that's all we had for this week, uh, on Aerospace HFE, and now back to the main show.

[00:40:06] Phil Doyon: All right, thanks Nick and Barry. Uh, this is Phil from the Aerospace System Technical Group over at HFES to report on the latest in aviation human factor. And this week I'm really happy to be joined once again by Andra Mahu.

[00:40:21] Andra Mahu: Hey, glad to be back. So this week, we need to talk about business jets. For those of you listening to the audio version of this podcast, you should head on over to the Human Factors Cast YouTube channel in order to see all the video extras that we have added to our recording.

[00:40:33] Andra Mahu: You don't wanna miss this. So most of our listeners are familiar with commercial jets, also known as airliners, and this is the kind of aircraft that you and I will hop on for our travels. So this is like the Boeing 737 or the CRJs for shorter flights. Business jets are different, however, because these are private jets that are typically operated by corporations, governments, or even very wealthy individuals.

[00:40:53] Andra Mahu: So this is an expensive aircraft that's flown by just a few passengers.

[00:40:56] Phil Doyon: Yeah, right. I remember that Steve Jobs [00:41:00] flew in a Gulfstream that Apple offered to him in, uh, the 2000. Elon Musk, being the richest person on earth, owns a fleet of business jets, including three Gulfstream. And Beyonce bought the Challenger to Jay-Z as a gift on Father's Day in 2012.

[00:41:17] Phil Doyon: Honey, if you're listening, Father's Day is coming soon, and this would be a very nice gift idea. But, uh, so you see that business jets, uh, are ... and rich people are a completely different reality than the one that you and I are familiar with. Compared to commercial aircraft, business jets have luxurious interior design that looks more like a luxurious apartment, uh, with space for a bed and a shower.

[00:41:40] Phil Doyon: The cockpit is also equipped with the latest avionics technologies to offer its customers access to any airport they desire.

[00:41:48] Andra Mahu: Well, the major manufacturers in this sector are Textron, Gulfstream, Bombardier, and Dassault. In the past few years, we've seen a push towards more expensive jets that can fly even longer distances than ever before, and this is what's called the [00:42:00] ultra long range.

[00:42:00] Andra Mahu: So Gulfstream and Bombardier introduced their latest models that could fly more than 7,500 nautical miles in a single leg. So this means that you can get from point A to point B, wherever A and B are located on Earth. These are the most expensive aircraft available, which sell for about $80 million, depending on its customization.

[00:42:17] Andra Mahu: Now, Dassault also wants to get its place in the market of ultra long range and e- ultra expensive jets, and back in March, they unveiled the Falcon 10X, which is their new flagship aircraft. And honestly, what struck me the first is the, just the scale of this thing. So when people picture a private jet, they usually imagine something that's relatively small, but the Falcon 10X is only about 2.6 meters shorter than a CRJ900 regional airliner, and its wingspan's actually much closer to that of a Boeing 737.

[00:42:44] Andra Mahu: So from the ramp, it looks far closer to a commercial aircraft, and inside, the cabin is enormous by business jet standards. It's designed around four separate living zones, and it can also accommodate up to 19 passengers. There's also room for a full bedroom with a queen size [00:43:00] bed, a dedicated lounge space, and even a shower.

[00:43:02] Phil Doyon: What I'm most interested in from a human factors perspective is the cockpit. The Cirrus selected Honeywell avionics systems, which relies heavily on large touchscreen displays. Pilot can directly interact with the avionics using gestures like pinch to zoom, which starts to feel much closer to customer electronics than that of a traditional cockpit The aircraft also includes a combined vision system that is called FalconEye.

[00:43:28] Phil Doyon: Basically, it combines synthetic vision, so that's an offline data that is coming from a database to show the terrain around you, with forward-looking infrared cameras. So this is a real time imagery that, such that you could see a vehicle that would be standing on the runway, for instance. So combining both of these systems let the pilot see the runway through fog or low visibility conditions.

[00:43:53] Phil Doyon: This technology lets the aircraft land even in bad weather. And I gotta admit, [00:44:00] FalconEye is a pretty effective marketing name.

[00:44:02] Andra Mahu: And another feature that's generating discussion in the aviation community is Dassault's decision to use a single throttle lever to control the two engines on the aircraft.

[00:44:10] Andra Mahu: And this is the first time I'm unaware of such a feature on a civilian aircraft, '

[00:44:15] Barry Kirby: cause usually you have one throttle to control the power of the related engine, and that follows the principles of ecological interface design,

[00:44:22] Andra Mahu: where there should be a one-to-one mapping between a control element and the constraint from the work domain.

[00:44:28] Andra Mahu: So say that the left engine fails, you would move back the left throttle and turn off the left engine, while keeping the right throttle at a normal position to keep thrust from the right engine. Now, Dassault explains that they were able to automate the control laws between both engines such that a single lever would remain at the same position, even in case of an engine failure.

[00:44:45] Andra Mahu: And it seems to me that this lever serves for the pilot to manifest his intention for how much thrust the aircraft should have, as opposed to actually controlling the engine.

[00:44:54] Phil Doyon: All right. So we see that the Falcon 10X is a good example of where business aviation is [00:45:00] heading. Flights are longer range, they're more automated, and cockpits are evolving away from traditional designs.

[00:45:07] Phil Doyon: This give human factors researchers plenty to think about. And once again, if you want to see the jet, head over to the YouTube channel to watch all the videos we've added to this segment. All right. Well, that's all we have for this week. Thanks for listening. And now back to the show

[00:45:21] Nick Roome: Yes, back to the show indeed.

[00:45:22] Nick Roome: And, uh, y- you know, I guess right now would be a, a great time to throw up that, uh, s- do this. That way maybe we can afford a business jet. Anyway thank you to, um, the Aerospace Systems Technical Group for, uh, sending along those This Week's in Aerospace. I know I've been missing them, and I, I bet you have too.

[00:45:41] Nick Roome: So, uh, I'm glad we could finally catch up. Okay, with just a few minutes left here it's time for, uh, the part of the show that needs no introduction. It's Just It Came From. Barry, uh, it's been a while. What is your it came from this week?

[00:45:55] Barry Kirby: By it came from, you mean One More Thing?

[00:45:57] Nick Roome: It came from One More Thing.

[00:45:59] Nick Roome: One More Thing. [00:46:00] That is what I meant, because I've clearly not done this in a few weeks.

[00:46:03] Barry Kirby: I was gonna say, I mean, clear- clearly One More Thing is rehearsing about how we do these things. No, so I'm gonna be sneaky and have two more things. Okay. Give me a call, give me a call it something else completely.

[00:46:13] Barry Kirby: I guess nobody's gonna catch us out.

[00:46:14] Nick Roome: No one's gonna care.

[00:46:15] Barry Kirby: We're moving office this week, so, it's... You sort of forget. We- it's been three years since we moved, and you forget just how much stuff you, and clutter, and stuff you have. I mean, it's bad enough trying to move home, but trying to move offices when you're trying to, A, keep working, um, and do all that is just incredible.

[00:46:32] Barry Kirby: But the most exciting thing, and I'm hoping we can get photos of this soon, is we created a thing which I'm, I'm very proud of and we're gonna launch over, definitely will launch possibly not this weekend, but next weekend, which is a mobile human factors trials unit. And I've never seen anybody else have such a thing, and it's, it's...

[00:46:51] Barry Kirby: Basically, we've got a, a trailer, um, which has got Wi-Fi and SATCOM capability, and we're getting it wrapped with logos and stuff. [00:47:00] So watch this space. We'll, we'll show photos because it's cool.

[00:47:04] Nick Roome: Okay. We didn't plan this, and in fact, I didn't even see your One More Thing before I told you what my One More Thing is gonna be.

[00:47:09] Nick Roome: Funny that we're both talking about mobile things in our One More Thing. I talked about this a little bit in the pre-show, and if you're watching live or watching, uh, later on, on, uh, a video format, uh, you're lucky because you get to see this little number here. And for those of you who are listening, I'm gonna describe this thing in detail.

[00:47:27] Nick Roome: So what you're looking at is a plastic pegboard with Velcro attached. And with that Velcro, uh, there are several different doodads attached to this plastic pegboard. I have a a headphone amplifier, so that way, uh, you can listen to things. And then I have two lav mic kits that open up like AirPod, uh, cases, and you can take out the lav mics, and those lav mics connect to transceivers, which I have...

[00:47:59] Nick Roome: [00:48:00] Or, or to receivers. And then those receivers are then, uh, mounted on the board. Everything's plugged in, so everything remains powered. And then there's, uh, several audio cables on here that connects everything together. So that way, I can take this mobile kit, and it looks big 'cause I have it on camera, but if I bring it back to my face, like, it, it's about as big as my face.

[00:48:21] Nick Roome: It's actually quite compact. And this is going to be very nice for when we go to conference and do conference coverage because, uh, it makes setup for for connecting and doing coverage mobily very easy. I'm very excited about this. I had to build this all myself and if you're a fan of cable management, there you go

[00:48:40] Nick Roome: That's my one more thing.

[00:48:42] Barry Kirby: Nice.

[00:48:42] Nick Roome: All right. Is that it? That must be it. That's it for today, everyone. It- you got anything else? No?

[00:48:47] Barry Kirby: Oh, the, uh, the, uh, let, let's do this outro bit.

[00:48:49] Nick Roome: Okay. We'll do the outro. Yeah. It's called the outro, right? It- I'm sure, right? Right? I think

[00:48:54] Nick Roome: Okay. That's it for today, everyone.

[00:48:55] Nick Roome: If you like this episode and enjoy some of the discussion about Human Factors Cast, come visit [00:49:00] our Discord because that is where you can talk about us. Comment wherever you're listening with what you think of the foundation and the news. That's cool stuff, I think anyway. For a more in-depth discussion, like I said, you can join us on our Discord community.

[00:49:12] Nick Roome: Visit our official website, sign up for our newsletter, stay up-to-date with all the latest Human Factors news. If you like what you hear, you'll want to support the show, or if you want to help support the mission of Human Factors communication then leave us a five-star review, tell your friends about us, or really consider supporting us financially, and you can do that on Patreon or Givebutter.

[00:49:32] Nick Roome: Those are our two platforms right now. As always, links to all of our socials and our website are in the description of this episode. Mr. Barry Kirby, thank you for being on the show today. Where can our listeners go and find you if they want to talk about the foundation?

[00:49:45] Barry Kirby: If you want to come chat to me about that, then you can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and places like that.

[00:49:49] Barry Kirby: Otherwise, you can also find me on 1202 Human Factors 1202HFPodcast.com talking about in- interviews with people who are in or, in and around the Human Factors community, and that [00:50:00] is 1202pod.com.

[00:50:01] Nick Roome: Excellent. As for me, I've been your host, Nick Rome. Uh, you can find me on our Discord and across social media at Nick_Rome.

[00:50:07] Nick Roome: Thanks again for tuning in to Human Factors Cast. Until next time... It dep- It depends