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Sept. 8, 2016

Human Factors Cast E008 - Displays (Part 2)

This week, Nick and Billy finish up their discuss…

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This week, Nick and Billy finish up their discussion about displays. The exciting conclusion to...last week's episode.

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| Disclaimer: Transcript provided by YouTube automatic Closed Caption. Any inaccuracies or errors are not attributed to the Hosts or contributors to Human Factors Cast. |

now look here's the thing this is a psychology show and I just wanted to take a minute to tell you guys about the psychological benefits of listening to audiobooks right audiobooks can boost your productivity because you're not doing you're not reading you're doing other stuff while you're listening it you know what as smart as I am not to toot my own horn but I I don't know how to pronounce some big word sometimes and so listening to somebody else speak it you know it helps me learn them good things you know it makes you feel like you're on a journey with someone when they read to you and oftentimes it's the author it's super cool right so it's almost like a one-sided conversation somebody just talking to you and here's the best part if you have a student or a young one at home this models good interpretive reading right they can read along with it it encourages critical listening introduces new vocabulary so this episode is brought to you by now keeping all those things in mind that I just said about the psychological benefits of audiobooks you can go to even Factor's gasps go check them out today on the show Billy and I finish our conversation about displays because last week we just had so much to talk about we couldn't fit it all in so let's get started

welcome to human factors cast your weekly podcast for all things human factors psychology and design here are your hosts Nik Rome and Billy Hall hey everybody and welcome back to another episode of human factors cast man Billy it feels like forever since we've seen each other I've missed you but they say distance makes the heart grow fonder it's been like what like not even a couple seconds we just ended our last podcast because we got so excited about this stuff that it went wrong and we just decided to break it up into two parts I think the actual length of time we had was about five minutes cuz you went outside to make a phone call and I went over there to I went to the bathroom take a Dean Cole so so in that five how have you been this last week oh dude it has been amazing I you know I had these great things that happen here insert great things that happened I've had these challenging thing insert challenging things that happened and you know I also did have some good times insert good times are you gonna go back and edit the good okay that's it because we've only been separated for five minutes but you know it is what it is no it's been a week Billy what are you talking about we already told them that it's it's only been it's been a week dude it's I don't know what you're you're right you're right I'm sorry we gotta actually keep him just magic so anyway uh-huh what are we what are we talking about we're talking about displays part deuce bart deuce what judgment displays judgment displays

absolute judgment displays out - electric Boogaloo electric Boogaloo displays man sir displays so I so what did we talk about last time we talked about perception displays and mental displays and how they affected when you're looking at there's a model mental model when we're looking at display design right right so last time we went over displays but let's remind ourselves what's a display what a display is right so again a display device is some sort of output for the presentation of information and remember this can be visual tactile or auditory it's basically some way of you know showing present presenting information mm-hmm yeah you even talked a little bit about blind people doing it right all right and so we talked about different types right yeah so we mentioned that there were haptic displays with like Braille and different like we mentioned the tongue example right right glitter boys right if you're just tuning in please go back and listen to our old podcast because that taken out of context can mean something else well talked about auditory displays and I mentioned a cool story about how how you were working on that yeah different where the sound was coming from yeah yeah yeah and then we went over the difference between 2d and 3d displays and laser lasers and Holograms help me oh yeah hella we mom helped me Oh Billy Kenobi you're my only hope all right okay so then we went over the 13 principles of display design on the previous show we covered the first seven right right yeah principles we get we got super into it right right right right we just we couldn't cram all this information into one episode yeah we didn't want to rush through it because it's about you guys right I mean it's it's a lot of valuable information especially if you're an aspiring human factors practitioner or if you are a designer or a coder someone just working on an app and your free time someone in Silicon Valley who's you know trying to get some seed money for this trial if you're working on something just keeping these things in mind so we want to make sure we didn't you know we want to make sure we give it justice right right I mean this thing it sounds like this kind of idea should be on the tip of everybody's mind throughout the design process of whatever you're doing right even I mean yeah whenever whenever you're designing for somebody else or creating something for somebody else this this should be right there in the forefront we always talk about that the idea of have someone else do your thing have someone else use your thing utilize people who do you I UX and design to make sure that you're not just making oh da things because that's how your brain is wired yeah and you know what if you guys are making something and you want us to review it on the show go ahead and send it to us I mean we're all over social media give us a comments it you know what if you're making something you probably don't want the world to see it go ahead and send it to us at human factors cast at exactly yeah yeah we will review it on the show for you for free that is some money that's valuable me home I mean you know we might talk about it if we can or will report it even for later date if you want to keep it under wraps because we believe in our fans we do just let us know go ahead and give us a comment or message us on human factors cast of whatever we're everywhere definitely so last week yeah we like you said we covered the perceptual principles mm-hm and the mental model principles right and you know those those kind of went into like how we perceive information and what types of things should we present on the display while you know we're looking at it what what kind of things are more important and less important and how we process information that is on the screen and then we also you know mention these these display principles about mental models and that's basically how you think about something mm-hmm and and basically when a map that the the information to how someone thinks about it right and these were all put out by a guy and his sisters while they were sitting around a pentagram right Wiccans woman's not yeah not Wiccans like bling like magic like I'm gonna find out your dark secret what are these days Wiccans is probably listening to this podcast probably like career suicide right now oh yeah yeah that's what's gonna happen someone's listening in is like I was gonna hire that guy but no I don't need that kind of black magic around me awakens what are you talking about hiring Wiccan hiring Wiccan no awakens awakens is set for life yeah thanks he is oh he's like human factors he made his yeah yeah he's okay he's doing okay okay he's doing okay for him he has a couple of tough ones I don't know about that but he's doing okay alright so we talked about those last time right there's a couple more design principles right and these are principles based on attention what what attention okay attention and then we also have principles that serve our memory mm-hmm like I remember that I see what you're doing I'm trying I'm making a face Chihuahua chaingun I thought all of them are gonna work alright alright alright someone finds those funny out there some someone [ __ ] yeah he's like someone is laughing at my disdain for your jokes right you know you decided to invite me to do this you have other friends but now no you just like my plucky attitude and my interest in your work mr. Billy hallo everyone alright so let's get into these principles based on attention okay yeah okay so basically we're starting at number eight here so this is minimizing information access cost now what does that mean to you Billy minimizing information access cost what people have a short attention span so I would imagine that they wouldn't have to keep track of a lot of information on actions that they have to perceive kind of like that old adage that uh if you're hacking a computer you have to type in like thirty different lines of code real quick because you're racing against the machine it's not usually that complicated right right yeah so so this yeah you're right you're very you yeah yeah I can't even tell you know any more your guys you're just getting it yeah so this is basically making making information right like easy to access from from whatever you're looking at on the display all right so you know an exact an you think of an example I got one here I got one written down and the show knows don't look at the show give an example make make information easy so-so low cost low to low low cost and time and effort for you hey James you can access a lot of information on your bank you can transfer money by just hitting my to three buttons and and hitting Enter like for example when you bring it up there's usually like four things you know it has balance transfer withdrawal and deposit okay I want you okay so there's a couple things that are happening with an ATM that's a good place to go okay so think about Nate TM so one way you can minimize information access cost with an ATM is you can make the screen really tiny right okay the ATM screens are pretty tiny right yeah this is so that way there's not a whole lot of information on it it's contained to a small area you don't have to look very far to find the information the the cost of accessing information on that screen is very low because you don't have to move your eyes very much you know and you can kind of place your body in front of it and not have to worry about the person behind you looking at you another thing that ATMs do which I don't know if you've noticed but when when it spits back out your card the color on some ATMs the color around like there's a little yeah it changes color right like saying hey look at me look at me it flies and and it's basically saying you know that's the most important source of information right now get your card before you leave right that information access cost is low because it's it's creating such a big change in the salience e of that signal mm-hmm fancy yeah the the basically how prominent it is okay yeah yeah yeah the plumage of the eighteen okay yeah sure I mean it makes yeah okay anyway so so yeah no I mean the the fact that it flashes uh-huh it shows you you know hey look at look at look at look at me look at me hey thank you thank you here's your card oh thank you thank you very very much there you go so that's that that would be an example of minimizing that information access cost you basically want to make it for the user to sort of access its information without having to work too hard what about the idea that all you ATM seem to have like a uniformed design like for example it always has those eight buttons on the side right here it has the keypad right there it has the little audio jack if you need to listen to it right it always seems to be and it always seems to have the same prompts even though you go to a different bank or a different place yeah so a lot of that has to do with consistency in standards so that way people around the world can understand that stuff and then also you know we're gonna talk about consistency a little later okay sorry about that I thought I was going towards the idea of minimizing information access no well yeah the fact that it's a small screen does but the fact that it's consistent mm-hmm that does not that's a little bit different all right so the next the next piece of the puzzle mm-hmm of these 13 design principles this is the proximity compatibility principle okay okay proximity compatibility principle all right all right you got it yeah all right good so the next one you're not even gonna stop me you got it right like you're just picking up this into Blake gear okay that's them any good compatibility principle really quick that one's the PCP whoa let me stop for a second the reason why I wanted to just go on is because you're you're skipping ahead and that's such a good thing I feel so happy because you are putting these pieces together and you're you're

and you got okay you already figured out that we're sorcerers and you know that consistency is coming up next the black rose and everything okay so yeah that's talking about what we lack the ropes the black robes are dead graduation gowns but anyway so all right new it all right so proximity compatibility principle what is that okay so let's break it down proximity right how where it is how close it is to something else right right compatibility how well it fits with that all right and principle so breaking it down like that right you have divided attention between two sort of pieces of information right and and that might actually be necessary to complete a task right so so having these having this information separated could be good having this information together could be good and so they like like things that go together should be close together on the display right is that why we when we have things like wireless keyboards and things like that right we always still put it underneath the monitor you know because I noticed like people have offices right and they have screens and you can always tell what their dominant screen is for like typing things sending emails or stuff like that because the keyboards usually in front of that screen maybe that might have something to do with it think about displays wouldn't it be considered to display because how the machine were is like when they were doing a typewriter wouldn't that be considered a display well let's go back to what displays are right this is this is some sort of presentation of information oh you're right oh you're right now that now it's not telling you anything it tells you what keys you're pressing and that in that sense at the display for the keys but most people know how to type without I got you so really that's in your head but the actual display is what's on the screen so no we're talking about you know basically just you want things that go together to be together on the screen mm-hmm so

also you want to be careful of not to clutter the screen oh right you know too much stuff on the screen can can be so much it's it could be so noisy that you're just you don't know where to look right I see that a lot in like Forex games that always happen out there because it's like I don't know where all this technology informations supposed to be right and so you know part of this has to do with the mental model but it's mostly based on attention right and so yeah basically you want to put together some buttons that have some sort of similar functionality you know together and then you want to maybe pair things that have similar colors or patterns and and and really this this kind of I mean they all link together but this links in really nicely with you know minimizing information access cost because the the cost of accessing similar information is low when you put it all together alright yeah yeah yeah like if you're gonna be looking at the same stuff anyway might as well might as well yeah and and so you you minimize that cost mm-hmm okay all right I get it I get it good I'm glad you're getting it now I'm getting it too I hope you do you know those mechs aren't gonna design themselves well what would you call like a wizard mech is that like a thing in oh god no no no no fan I mean they try to do hard fiction I mean as hard fiction as you can get nowadays wasn't there like a series that did wizard man I think there was that that that it I don't know anime but there was that anime series that did that didn't it I don't know like Gundam Wing is that is that magic mix I think so but Japanese are weird because it's like I'm piling a spacecraft but I believe in myself so the spacecraft can do amazing thing if you find like sorcerer Wiccan mech drivers let me know cuz uh cuz I'll get right on that and we gonna get you a little leather here with a patch on it so you can be part of that make it say human factors cast across the back ah dude that'd be metal we got to get patches we got to get sweet patches oh man with our logo design and every yeah that'd be awesome would you guys be interested in any type of product placement t-shirts patches things like that let us know on the facebook let us know all right so we're moving on to principle of multiple resources all right I get this one oh you got this one this is the idea of like basically different things like like always in the movies red lights start flashing but there's also noise flashing what am I even doing here Billy take it away take it over no I mean like it's just principles of multiple resources we've talked about the idea that everything here is kind of like a principle of design but multiple resources seems like it would be using multiple things all right well yeah exactly yeah when you're designing something you were you yeah the red lights flash but you also want redundancy right and that was another one of our principles redundancy game presented in multiple ways right I never understood why there was a big loud horn going and red lights flashing because it's like yeah we know well yeah but I mean if you're not looking at the red light flashing or you can't see it because you've blacked out but you can still hear you know there's you you it's red alert you want something right right right Star Trek style yeah and so you you know and and the idea behind this is that it uses different resources in your brain like you use different resources to process auditory information than you do to process visual information and so you know simultaneously presenting these things you can you create that redundancy and it has to do with the multi modality that we talked about a couple weeks ago right remember with the virtual environment environment versus virtual worlds up but yeah yeah we talked about multi modality where you have different inputs right so basically this is providing you with different inputs you know like a fighter jet pilot will have the red lights flashing they'll have the alarm sounding their joystick OB Xin decides to check out our Aden episode 4 that yeah I'm an all back that's a callback no but there joystick haptically will be gyro vibrating as well if they like stall the plane right so it'll say hey get on this like a that's automated that's not just a thing because of like wind resistance against the wings and stuff like that they can yeah that's that simulated that's yeah well I mean yeah really yeah I didn't know that it like sorry my mental model that was because of the recession because of the wizard since of the wing and they were and they put that in there for that reason like hey no they're all fly-by-wire now really yeah did not know that you're learning something human factors cast alright so yeah so basically yeah yeah so okay so so another example of that right would be like a map showing you a city name mmm right and and some speech saying you are 500 feet from your destination right so you can you can see it and you can hear that you're getting close as well right and and that would be the idea with the multiple resource principle is that it accesses different pools of resources in your brain uh-huh and so you're seeing the map and you're hearing this information and that's different from if you were seeing the map and reading that text on there because your visual system would be reading that text instead of looking at the map does that make sense yeah yeah yeah okay right it's kind of like the idea of language and subtitles yeah so when there's subtitles on the screen you're not looking at what's going on you're reading the subtitles right right that's why some people have problems with like foreign films where a lot is going on right on the screen because it takes you away from the subject or multiple people are talking at the same time right but we use principle of multiple resources to color-code the subtitles and put them in different places yeah yes get in there you got it all right based on attention right and now we are moving on to the memory principles mm-hmm okay okay all right so memory principles what do you think these have to deal with well we talk about when we talk about heuristics it's the idea of like making memory type of movements like like on a phone and things like that I know if I push this button this is what it'll do but it doesn't take a lot of memory to do it right I'm I just continuously get impressed by the amount of knowledge that you have absorbed over these last eight episodes Billy I am not only impressed I'm sorry I'm not caught on the right track here you are definitely on the right track yeah so let's let's start with with replacing memory with visual information knowledge in the world right now there's this there's this idea of knowledge in the world versus knowledge in your head okay okay if I tell you a phone number mm-hmm can you remember it easily well after a few times probably saying into my head I bet I could right now how easy would it be for you to remember if you were looking at a display that had it right on the screen like would it go away after a little while or is it just always on the screen it's just it's just right there it's just displayed on the screen well I wouldn't really have to remember it though what uh that's the point okay so why would we tax our users cognitively by making them remember something that we can show them on the screen mm okay okay that's what we're getting at here right yeah so this idea can be really valuable and sort of you know providing the user with information that they shouldn't have to remember in their head okay now that's that's not that's not it there's more right wait there's more but wait there's more if you act now on human factors caste okay so the more part of it is yes you've put information into the system that they can look at in reference at will now this should be information that is hard for them to remember this should be information that they will need to accomplish their task now there still should be information that they can keep inside their head mm-hmm right now this is this is knowledge in the world versus knowledge in the head and so the knowledge in the head has to complement the knowledge that you would have on these displays right so for example like like if you're if you're an expert in some program and you're executing commands to run it right the commands themselves you would probably remember you wouldn't want to put those on the screen because that would take up and that would take a screen space and add clutter right but basically you would be reading a manual if you had that information on the screen mmm okay okay and and and chances are they have already committed this stuff to memory because they they do it all the time now the stuff that you would want on the screen is is stuff that is pertinent to the task now I in this hypothetical situation I don't know what the task could be and I don't know what the information could be but the point is you want it relevant to what they're doing but not to overlap with what they kind of already know in their head okay yeah yeah like um I mean we can see examples of this in video games sure give us an example well like for example its traditional that l3 is run you are getting so far ahead and I love that you're go I'm sorry no no no it's okay it's like l3 is usually run but in no man's sky its r3 and it drives a lot of people insane well what so what what information is on the screen in that example what information is displayed what what do you mean we're talking about Oh on the screen uh well it's out you know what I'm getting back to a controller again and I keep doing that you are what's on the display we're talking about displays so if you can think of an example right that we just talked about so again we're talking about having that knowledge on the screen versus having the knowledge in your head okay so like for example when you're doing PC stops like E is usually an interact button so they always see an e everywhere so you instinctually know where it is and what you're pushing sure what I think of when I think of video games is typically tutorial levels oh yeah yeah you see an overlay of the controller saying hey press this button right right well that's you're used to it that's knowledge in your head and the knowledge that is pertinent to you know what's next in the game advancing in the game is shown on the screen you don't get to see that controller control all the time on the screen so so that would be an example that I would think of in relation to video games right okay okay all right now or almost to your favorite part I swear we're almost and then you can talk about it oh yeah all you I promise we just got to make it through one more okay now principle of predictive aiding uh-huh this is cool so there's a whole field dedicated to decision support systems now what I mean by that is imagine you have to make a decision in a split second or or a couple seconds that you have to cap a factor in like hundreds of thousands of variables let's say let's say you are a a commercial airline pilot all right all right captain Billy Hall fly on that plane flying the plane not gonna put it in the Hudson but I'm fond that playing one of your engines goes out ah nuts alright so there's probably a million things running through your head did I just hit something did was it a machine machinery failure was it pilot error pilot error was it me did I do something like these are just three millions of factors that could have affected this right hmm and so you basically have to say okay so what what happened and now what am I gonna do right you have to interpret all this information all these factors in a split second it well yeah because if not you're gonna fall out of the sky am i right right okay so we're talking about principle of predictive aiding now what this does is you want to give the user some sort of proactive feedback right that so so what I was mentioning earlier decision support system that's kind of like what happens after the fact but the predicted predictive would be like you're coming in too low for a landing mm-hmm so before you crash I'm going to before I die horribly if you stay on this path you're gonna crash but you know like provide a display that says angle up a little bit and you'll be okay mm-hmm right so it's predicting reduce B is angle up it's basically intercepting that error that you are likely to commit if you are if you keep going on this path and saying hey hey wait wait wait you should probably do this so basically it should one of one this principle is basically saying that it should eliminate sort of these research resource demanding you know tasks that someone that an operator or user is experiencing and replace them with something easy to understand right mmm-hmm like instead of saying oh I don't know if I'm coming in too shallow say I'm coming in too shallow and offer a solution right right right that's we hear about these sort of things a lot of times you know reduce speed things like that right uh you know there there's like the stoplight there's an example that you see every day the speed trap when driving explain how for example it even wants you to reduce speed you're coming up to the speed trap well now this it's not a speed trap it's a speed monitor speed enforced yeah the speed enforced thing that shows a little digital display of your speed if you're going too fast it shows you the speed before you get there starts blinking like reduce speed reduce speed like you're going too fast slow down on this turn that's a good example I was thinking of like the signs that tell you how far away to a city you are oh okay okay yeah yeah yeah so that gives you information right or or like traffic ahead just road signs in general like if you if you stay in this Lane you're gonna go straight if you stay in that way and you're gonna turn left if you go this way you're gonna go on the North Freeway your GPS tells you these things yeah but road signs are the predictive right okay okay yeah or you know something like a dotted line on the road says hey there's gonna be a turn coming up mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah it's just these like these little things that come into it that say hey look like there's something coming up you should probably pay attention number 13 number number 13 the evil one this is not evil this is your favorite one is the one that opens the pentagram to compute or computer bliss ah that's exactly what an evil warlock would say we'll know if you followed all these principles you should have an excellent product right maybe usability test you might the design things that we do right everything needs to be in a uniformed idealistic way just like the Weaver intended all right the few fans that got that joke those fan solid fans all right so I'm gonna let you do the honors what is number 13 13 is the principles of consistency it's the idea of one thing being like another thing being like another thing so we immediately understand what's going on like the ATM's we were talking about of where everything is placed like the idea that our 3 is always run you know and when they come up there and when they don't do it it messes yuju or the idea of like uh non switches on and off switches off up and down these are universal things that we all understand dang that was a high-five from the scientist I got a high-five from a scientist that hasn't happened to me until since high school man so so the science that's going on behind that uh obviously that makes sense at face value all right do you think the same you're likely to do so the science behind it is habits right human beings are habitual beings they'll do things in routines and though they'll get used to something one way and it'll be hard for them to break that habit that's why when you make run l-3 and you map it to r3 and it doesn't quite it doesn't Drive no it doesn't so that it's probably still the reason why America is still on this system measurement that we are on yeah that's exactly because it's art well yeah and that is our consistency like huh if we deviate it ain't broke don't fix it yeah I mean it's totally broken but but anyway so ignore it until it's broken broken broken yeah till it causes like millions and millions of dollars of problems and then we'll fix it yeah that's the American Way but only then that's when it becomes worth it all right so so the other science that's going on here is that we have short-term memory and long-term memory and there's the processes that go into it and and we should probably do an episode on memory I'm gonna write that down right now because memory is really interesting also you can remember see okay really quick what I'm doing here when I write down these show ideas yeah I'm putting knowledge in the world versus knowledge in my head uh-huh because now I don't have to remember these I can just look at them and this is my display this is my upcoming podcast list it's a little list the the the hastily jotted notes I dig it we have we have a ton of lists but if you guys are interested in any topic let us know we'd be more than happy to move that up if you're itching to talk about something or you have a question for us just let us know but anyway so we're talking about consistency right we have this short-term memory and long-term memory and there's some magic that goes on in between those two which we should talk about in a memory episode which is why I just wrote it down but basically once you know you have these consistencies they've moved into the long-term memory they basically trigger actions that the user just does out of habit mm-hmm right and so once they do this out of habit then then they're they're more likely to complete their task if the product is designed to meet those needs hmm right so yeah a design basically must accept it right if they try to break that mold uh-huh if they tried to do something different you're gonna have a hard time huh okay right that's the idea like I mean and it kind of affects on everything that you're doing there people will get upset about this people will rage about this especially on the Internet yeah why isn't it like this why can't it be simple why can't we all just use USB cords to charge our phones yeah yeah yeah I mean like is there a reason is there efficiency or you just and then people will get mad are you just doing this to make us buy your thing are you just making it so that we only use your product right and but when me people make concessions we don't ever notice it hardly you know the habits so the habits part of it is really interesting right because we do things instinctually and it just kind of happens there's also another component to a - which is like iconography now this is like making the floppy disk icon always save mm-hmm right right right even though the floppy disk is it's extinct like the idea of the phone call on the cell phone like one of the last time you picked up a regular transceiver like that it's still yeah it's still shaped yeah yeah yeah yeah it's those ideas of you know these have been the standards so we're going to carry them forward and use them again because it helps the users recognize what's going on and that's also knowledge in the world versus not your head all comes back that's not like you have to remember what this new icon is no I mean sometimes they will introduce new icons and it like really trips them up but if it's a good icon it'll stick just like the metric system the idea of the so I would imagine that our phone 3040 years from now when all we have our cell phone is still going to be that little sucker right there with the phone thing or when we come up with digital keyboards where it just knows what we're going to be typing it's still gonna look like a keyboard you know I just thought of another predictive aid mmm when you're typing on your phone now a lot of the keyboards will actually like say you like okay so in my phone if I type in human mm-hmm the next word that like shows up in the predictive display is factors mmm yeah yeah if I hit that it'll just automatically type it to save me the trouble right and then it'll show cast I mean it's just or or like that ring that they're trying to get on there you know the ring that they're trying to do where you kind of just go this way and that way to do letters you know have you seen that thing online so that's like a gestural based keyboard yeah so you can have two of them and you can type a lot faster because you know it's pretty so predictive apparent they haven't patent figured out the technology yet the most okay I'm watching you do this and I'm gonna describe it for the listeners Billy is literally sitting here waving his hands like jazz hands yep but those aren't spirit fingers okay he's waving them like jazz hands yeah in front of him and this goes back to I can't remember if it was this week or last week that we talked about minority reports displays oh this was last week that we talked about that yeah yeah yeah so for those of you listening it's been a week since we last met so I couldn't yeah so you doing that though makes me think wow that display is gonna make people tired really quick if they're moving their hands like this I'm getting tired just doing it now but think about it this way though if we start doing this when you're like 10 when you're 10 years old and we start doing this so we have 10 year olds with really like big biceps like think about triceps holding up their arms think about it the idea of the but the perfect world of automation goes in that direction and it all starts with you the only reason we know how to type is because the fact that we've been typing since like third grade let me tell you a sad sad story about a console called the Wii all right how many videos have you seen of people playing the Wii where they're sitting on the couch just going like waving waving the Wii mote but how old are those people I mean yes you get some of the younger people but watch how many ones that you see kids playing the Wii where they're getting really into it what I'm saying is that it's it's a novel idea mm-hmm and it might work for some people but I don't it depends how is your age how is your VR set up at your house doing it in concept well yeah I don't have any of the movement control set up yet we'll see when I get PlayStation VR that's something I want to review is what I really want to get one to like I've been thinking about the idea of like okay I got to get rid of this desk that I never use I gotta get really stuff right because I need to be able to make enough space you know they are you know they recommend a lot of room but you really don't need a whole lot of room if you sit down on your couch or your chair or whatever and play you should be okay yeah but don't you have to set up like parameters of walls now oh okay you'll be all right all right so I think that well that's it I mean that was that was all one dude that was a big episode I'm excited about it that was a big episodes uh yeah no I feel full of knowledge do you feel full okay that's good yeah if you were to design something which I think you're designing something but you don't want to say on the podcast yet right now because I don't want to be that guy and don't have something you're pretty humble about it but Billy is making something and it's pretty cool I've seen it so I'm gonna I'm not gonna say what it is I'm gonna respect his vision there I'm just gonna say that he's working really hard on something I've been working on it and I know he's been taking these into consideration since we started the podcast and I know it will be a better product because of this and I'll be more receptive to these points because I'll be able to meet you on solid ground about it but until then let's tell each other up and tell everybody about who we are all right so that's it for today mm-hmm all right we're all done if you guys want to be featured on our show yeah we didn't take questions this week because we had so much to cover and we broke it into two episodes if you guys want to be featured on our show we're all over social media Facebook Instagram Twitter whatever you can go ahead and comment on our SoundCloud Facebook I just said it all go ahead and send us an email at human factors cast at if you want us to look at something or to review something or talk about something that you might be creating we have a story question anything just give us an email anecdote be sure to LIKE and follow us and review us on iTunes the Google Play Store SoundCloud or whatever your favorite podcast directory is my podcast addict we're always trying to keep in touch with you guys so like Billy said earlier if you have any topics that you want us to talk about on the show let us know I've been your host Nick Rome you can find me on LinkedIn comm slash Nick Rome that's what - Oh Billy home they can find me on Twitter or streaming on YouTube at Tom star clarity thanks so much again for listening to us here on team effective cast until next time if the Pens

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