E312 - From Personalized UIs to Copilots: UX in 2026

e312 (audio)---from-personalized-uis-to-copilots_-ux-in-2026-Jan-08-2026-restream

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[00:00:00] Nick Roome: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Human Factors Cast.

[00:00:03] Nick Roome: This is episode 312. We're recording this episode live on January 8th, 2026. I'm your host, Nick Rome, and I'm joined today by Mr. Barry Kirby. Barry, how are you? I'm very well. Happy New Year. It's great to be back in the studio. Same to you, man. Happy new year. It is great to be back. We are back when we promised we're back when we said we'd be we're back.

[00:00:24] Nick Roome: And I hope that's good sign for the year. Yeah. And we got a great show for you lined up as well. We're gonna be, we're gonna be looking ahead or I guess looking at the present at 2026 and what some of the UX design shifts and trends are that we can expect this year. It's an interesting list.

[00:00:41] Nick Roome: We'll go through the whole thing a little bit later. But first, uh, just a couple programming notes or community update. Barry, would you like to tell us what's going on over at 1202? You got any exciting updates?

[00:00:51] Barry Kirby: Yeah, we are actually gonna do stuff in 1202 this year. What which I know I've been teasing this for a while, but it's actually gonna happen.

[00:00:57] Barry Kirby: We are changing the format slightly. We are going [00:01:00] for 12 solid interviews, so we're going for one a month mainly 'cause we want to ease ourselves back in. Um, there is a, um, a half plan about doing some, um, more chat type stuff in between, but at the moment we're gonna keep it simple. We've got 12 interviews coming up, so one a month and so we'll have the first one out at the end of January.

[00:01:16] Barry Kirby: But looking forward to get back into that saddle too.

[00:01:19] Nick Roome: Excellent. Well, I'm looking forward to, to listening to my second favorite podcast,

[00:01:23] Barry Kirby: uh, once again.

[00:01:24] Nick Roome: Alright, well let's not, uh, let's not belay the news. Let's get into it.

[00:01:28] Nick Roome: Yes, that's right. This is the part of the show all about human factors news. Barry, what is the story this week?

[00:01:35] Barry Kirby: This week we are looking at the 10 UX design shifts that basically redraw the map for human technology interaction in 2026. Instead of hand wavy predictions, the author leans on real work with enterprise design teams and conference chatter to show how explainable ai, agen AI, and dynamically generated interfaces are changing what it means to design a screen.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Barry Kirby: Voice finally becomes a serious multimodal partner to touch on visuals. Micro interactions graduate from sprinkles to the primary language of feedback. An augmented reality is quite moving from flashy demo to everyday decision support. At the same time, personalization is being re rethought about, uh, around user con, uh, content and clear boundaries.

[00:02:24] Barry Kirby: Accessibility is treated as a core design constraint rather than a checkbox and cross-platform. Continuity is be becoming table stakes as people bounce between devices all day. Finally, biometric and passwordless authentication. A reframed as interaction design problems, not just security plumbing. So Nick, would you be able to go through and give us a brief overview of the old 10 items?

[00:02:49] Nick Roome: Yeah. You gave, you gave us a, a little bit of a preview there, but to go through them one by one. Uh, so there's 10 of these. The first one here is explainable AI becomes non-negotiable. The [00:03:00] second one, ag, agentic, ux and human agent ecosystems I guess is more prevalent. That was the title. So I'm just going off of what's there.

[00:03:09] Nick Roome: Di uh, number three, dynamic personalized interfaces generated on demand. Number four, voice interfaces, finally getting their moment. Number five, micro interactions become the language. Number six ar transitions from demonstration to daily application. Number seven, personalization that respects boundaries.

[00:03:28] Nick Roome: Number eight, accessibility becomes foundational, not supplemental. Number nine, cross platform UX that works. And number 10, biometric authentication becomes the norm. I have a lot of thoughts on this but Barry, for a, in a rare moment, I'm gonna let you go first with your thoughts. Wow.

[00:03:47] Barry Kirby: Privileges my must new year or something.

[00:03:50] Barry Kirby: I dunno there's bits in this list I really, really like and I really wanna get stuck into talking about them. But there are some things in here that are, that are, just, hold on. I'm fairly sure we've been saying this for a [00:04:00] while. So, explainable ai, it's not new, but I think it's really important.

[00:04:04] Barry Kirby: We have spoken about this in, in previous episodes where in the same way as Google Maps existed, we always used to work out what the route was. And then now we don't care. We just put in our thing and make it work. And I think that's where we're gonna go with explainable ai that with right now where everyone's really serious about it.

[00:04:19] Barry Kirby: But we need to think further down the line. Voice being the next big thing. I've gotta be honest. I started working on voice hardware, voice software, voice recognition software in 2000. 25 years later, it's still 26 years later, it's still the big thing. It's coming. Really it is just, it is sort of getting there, but it is not a primary interface.

[00:04:40] Barry Kirby: I don't care what anybody says until we can work out, until you get truly conversational interaction. Yeah. Okay. Augmented reality, I think I'm gonna leave that to you. I I'm just gonna do accessibility. I love this one. Accessibility being basically being made standard is what kind of what we're talking about.

[00:04:57] Barry Kirby: Whereas at the moment we have a lot of, you know, [00:05:00] you design some, um, UI and then you're like, oh, right. How do I, how do I make it accessible to everybody? And it's kind of a, an adjunct too. And in some, in some places I've seen it's sort of not thought about until somebody turns around and says, hold on a second.

[00:05:13] Barry Kirby: You are not, you're not meeting the standards. You're not meeting that, you're not meeting best practice. Whereas now I like this idea that people are sort of saying, right, we need to build this in. We need, 'cause it is it, you, you're talking about making it not just for a subset of people, but a lot more people using a lot more of the accessibility tools.

[00:05:29] Barry Kirby: So love the fact that that's gonna be a standard, not the exception. Uh, Nick, what, what,

[00:05:34] Nick Roome: what stands out for you? Uh, there's a few of these line items that stuck out to me. I think just broadly as we comment on this, know that this is one person's prediction of what to expect for 2026. We'll all have our own predictions, but I think this, this list is very optimistic by nature. And I think that's it. Okay. Alright. I don't mean that as like a, a negative thing. I mean it as a positive thing. We should be [00:06:00] trying to reach for the stars when it comes to, you know, uh, how humans interact with technology. So the ones that stuck out to me, let me comment on this one.

[00:06:08] Nick Roome: So you, you left the AR to me. Thank you for that. This one ar transitions from demonstration to daily application. I, I don't think it's gonna do that this year. Uh, is this our next, you know, flying cars are coming within the next two years, augmented and virtual reality are gonna be the thing this year.

[00:06:23] Nick Roome: This is it. This is the one that's gonna do it. I don't know. I see where the prediction came from. There's a lot of technology coming out, but I just, I don't think it's quite there yet. And then another one that stuck out to me was the personalization that respects boundaries. I'm very hopeful about that one.

[00:06:39] Nick Roome: I think there's a lot of interesting things that some of the latest technology can do, especially when it comes to we'll talk a little bit more about this, but like, vibe coating. What, what can that do in terms of like, personalization and how does that, how can we make or how do, how do we start up these apps that are designed for the thing that you need to do?

[00:06:57] Nick Roome: That's interesting. There's some wishful [00:07:00] thinking about one of these, especially given this current administration, at least here in the states where accessibility becomes foundational. Not supplemental. You're talking about, co uh, uh, companies that are based in the United States where DEI was basically stripped away by an executive order.

[00:07:15] Nick Roome: I don't, it's wishful thinking. I really hope accessibility becomes foundational. But I am not super hopeful on that one given the given the importance that our government is putting on it. And then the last thing that that I took note of from this list was the cross platform UX that works.

[00:07:33] Nick Roome: There's a lot of focus on at least just anecdotally, the experience that you have across apps, no matter how you're interacting with that thing. And this is sort of like the end-to-end user experience or customer experience of a product. And I really think that end-to-end customer experience is becoming more of like they are, uh, suggesting something that works.

[00:07:58] Nick Roome: Uh, like I said, we can talk a little bit more [00:08:00] about it, but that's sort of my top the things that came to my mind immediately when, when looking at this list. Now let's, you, you were gonna say something, I didn't want to interrupt what you were gonna say.

[00:08:11] Barry Kirby: I was, I was gonna say, should we, I, I will really wanna dig into some of these, into a, in a lot more detail.

[00:08:16] Barry Kirby: Because, so she would take them one at a time and, uh, and strip them out a bit.

[00:08:22] Nick Roome: Let's do it. All right. Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna suggest. So let's take it away with explainable AI and that becoming a non-negotiable piece in, uh, in technology.

[00:08:34] Barry Kirby: I think it's a, um, it's maybe slightly optimistic to say that it becomes non-negotiable.

[00:08:40] Barry Kirby: I, I get what the author is trying to say, however I, it is still a lot of work to make it happen. And also I think it is, it, it, it is gonna be a time limited function, uh, because I think, and it, and it's part of this trust element that, uh, the moment the, we've got two almost cohorts of people, or maybe three, but let's go for [00:09:00] two that you've got people who are just using it or are, are very optimistic about using it.

[00:09:04] Barry Kirby: And I probably fit more into, into that category. I see it's a tool and we are gonna crack on and use it, but then you've got the skeptic group that it's terrible. It's take taken over the world. Even some people that I, I, uh, respect and all that sort of stuff, uh, are so adamantly against anything that mentions ai that, uh, that, that, that this means nothing to them anyway.

[00:09:23] Barry Kirby: It's not going to be a, um, appeasing to them. But the idea that that AI is gonna be focused to showing. Under the hood, why and how it got to its decisions is definitely part of this evolution where it needs to be at the moment. It needs to do this in order to engender trust. Um, what do you think, Nick?

[00:09:41] Nick Roome: I think you're right. I I see where I also, where the author is coming from with this, and I wonder if their perspective is more for consumer grade consumer grade products. 'cause I'm thinking about, you know, something like, uh, any of these large language models. What they've done now is they've sort of put themselves into modes when they're in thinking mode.

[00:09:59] Nick Roome: It's actually [00:10:00] explaining the rationale that the LLM is going through to get to the end result that you are trying to get to. And that's nice for when there's a delay in the answer that comes through. But I think you have to think a little bit broader from this perspective when it comes to AI providing support for decision systems, right?

[00:10:22] Nick Roome: Like decision support systems. I can imagine that over explaining you know, how, how it got there. It could almost increase the cognitive load of the final decision maker. Where they are, they, they need to make a decision and there are situations in which those decisions need to happen quickly. The.

[00:10:44] Nick Roome: The low risk situations, I can see it being like, okay, provide all the rationale for how the AI got here in high risk scenarios. It'd be like the provide, provide the, the key points here that influenced your decision rather than [00:11:00] the entire A to Z flow of how you got there. You know, that, what are the key factors of, of this decision and why?

[00:11:08] Nick Roome: Help, help support me as the operator in whatever the thing is that I'm doing. I, I, but I see the value, but I don't know if it's, if it's necessarily for every context. I think it really will. I don't know. Where's the, it depends button. I think it really will depend on what, who's doing

[00:11:25] Barry Kirby: what. It certainly does, I mean, certainly from my own experience last couple of years I've been developing user interfaces for a ai and the, a key part of that that has been explainability.

[00:11:37] Barry Kirby: And one of the things that we sort of got to very quickly was with, with so much users, they wanted to in, they initially thought that they wanted to see everything under the hood. In order to make that decision, you're like, well, actually, they very, we very quickly got to that piece of, well, if you are getting it to explain everything, the whole point of getting the system to do that is so you don't have to worry about it.

[00:11:58] Barry Kirby: And one of the most insightful [00:12:00] um, interface elements that I ended up building was a simple rag, uh, red, amber, green. Status symbol beside a decision element that was made. So it came out with a, with a, with a proposal for a, for for a decision output. And it would have a, basically a red, amber, green to say green really meant that there was very little behind it in terms of it was a very simple decision to be made.

[00:12:24] Barry Kirby: The number of key elements, very few. And if you wanted to click, click the button, you could, you, you could review it in milliseconds. Amber was a certain number, I can't necessarily go into the, into the number or the complexity, and red was, there's a lot of complexity or uncertainty here. And we, there was a, there's a certain nuance behind that, and so that would, if you had a red decision that you were like okay, you could press it and look under the hood about how it got there.

[00:12:48] Barry Kirby: Which then gave, it basically allowed the operators to understand whether this was a something that they should be spending more cognitive effort on or not, uh, which was really interesting. [00:13:00] So it'll be interesting to see how that sort of stuff comes along and how it goes across to the civilian space because I, as I mentioned in the, um, initial bit, I always go back to the Google Maps demonstration, the fact that.

[00:13:11] Barry Kirby: We initially, when, uh, all the stock came into play, we wanted to know the optional route, why it chose the route we wanted it to choose. And there's loads of, um, evidence to show that we would go and investigate that. Whereas now we just don't do it. We go, Google Maps are shown the route, and we start driving.

[00:13:26] Barry Kirby: We, in fact, we press go on the route after we've left. So we don't evaluate our roots beforehand. We trust it to tell it, to tell us where it's going unless something dramatic happens. And I've already,

[00:13:37] Nick Roome: I've already seen that happening with the Google search results. Like, yeah, you know, people you ask somebody to Google something or somebody's curious about something.

[00:13:44] Nick Roome: I've been in the presence of others, especially over the holiday season where somebody's googled a question that we had and then, you know, I know they're reading off the AI answer that's at the top and they just take it at base value, but then they have these negative opinions towards ai. But, uh,

[00:13:57] Barry Kirby: is that another point though, actually, and we should probably [00:14:00] stop this one in a minute, but probably this is fine when we are talking about people who are knowingly using AI elements or LLLM elements, which would be I guess a bit more high fidelity on, on the terms we're using.

[00:14:12] Barry Kirby: But if you know that you are using and some sort of AI agent, that's fine and you know that. But if you, it's, it's, it's so pervasive now in, in a lot of technologies, you are using it quite a lot without knowing that you're using it. Therefore, is there an element of that that that we need to play with anyway, we should probably move on.

[00:14:29] Barry Kirby: Uh, y

[00:14:30] Nick Roome: okay. Uh, one more note on this, and yes, I think we do, and all the conversations that we're having around this are important to. To number two. Yeah. So I'm okay with it. The thing that I think is going to be like here's my own prediction for 26, I guess that is the year that we're in, is that we're actually gonna go in the opposite direction.

[00:14:48] Nick Roome: There's like all these negative opinions towards ai and I think one thing, rather than the AI explaining their their thought process or how they become to, you know, a solution, I [00:15:00] think there's going to be like a separate marker on on stuff on the internet. Not just with content, across the internet that says this was made by a human and we're, we're going to swing back in that direction.

[00:15:13] Nick Roome: So now we'll have labels on things that will, anyway, so let's talk about agentic UX and human agent ecosystems. 'Cause this is also, you know, when it comes to AI agents, there's a lot of interest here for what they can do. And I would leverage the experience of others who have more experience in this.

[00:15:31] Nick Roome: And I only say this 'cause I know Andres is watching, but I think there's, um, there's a lot to be said about human agent ecosystems and where the current state is at and there's no well there, there are several enterprise consumer grade. Agents that can do jobs, okay-ish. Mm-hmm. But that's where we're at.

[00:15:53] Nick Roome: And I, I don't think we're quite at the level of having an ecosystem where you can write a prompt and then agents [00:16:00] go off and do certain parts of your prompt. I just don't think we're that sophisticated enough yet with the consumer grade stuff in. I don't know. What, what are your

[00:16:08] Barry Kirby: thoughts on that?

[00:16:10] Barry Kirby: I think the idea is, is right to a certain extent. And there is certainly, I can think of a couple of examples about where this is definitely in the mix. I would say that the, in my own experience, you there is a, a mix of human machine teaming elements of which a part of that, um, that machine piece is a number of agents working as part of a, of, of a larger system.

[00:16:32] Barry Kirby: But there are, I guess there's a couple of examples in the civilian space that are marketed quite heavily, and I can't remember the name of the one itself, but it's, uh, for a business support tool that has, that identifies seven or eight different agents within the tool. That one looks after your social media, one looks after your your internal stuff.

[00:16:52] Barry Kirby: One will write, uh, do your planning for you. And all they are really, uh, in. Large handfuls are different. [00:17:00] Large language models that have almost a di a different background to them, a different knowledge and learning or a different focus, or probably just really good marketing of the same one. But hey, let's not be too, uh, cynical.

[00:17:09] Barry Kirby: But I think the idea behind this, around, you know, you're not just having 10 L lms, you're probably having an LLM do one thing and neural net do another and, and different tools for different things. But having a, uh, uh, an agent, and really what this is leaning into is an, an agent manager that manages all of them for you.

[00:17:29] Barry Kirby: So you, you effectively having a single interface and saying, I want my social media planned and delivered for the year based on these principles, blah, blah, blah. And then it, you'll have 1, 1, 1 that's a scheduler, one that's a designer, one that's a go off and do it. We probably that the nuance behind it is probably more for the suppliers, the, the delivery people who do that.

[00:17:53] Barry Kirby: Whereas from a UX perspective, we just want to see one interface we just wanna say, go away and do. Mm-hmm. Um, so [00:18:00] I think it is probably right, but it's more of a, an implementation under the hood thing than a, uh, than, than the thing the consumer sees and, and different things whizzing off doing different things.

[00:18:09] Barry Kirby: Yeah. We'll need some. Yeah. I think, I think it's a, I think it is definitely a thing though. It's, it's how we fundamentally it leans into how do we manage ai, multiple AI instantiations. Uh, within any particular pro product or system.

[00:18:27] Nick Roome: All right, let's talk about this number three dynamic personalized interfaces generated on demand.

[00:18:32] Nick Roome: I think this one's pretty cool to think about in terms of maybe generating these customized views of dashboards for a certain thing, like maybe a human agent ecosystem manager. But I think there's you know, it with the vibe coding being a thing love it or hate it that people are using it. I wonder if there are procedural [00:19:00] ways in which developers could make something that aligns with the product that they're using, but is personalized towards the ask, right?

[00:19:10] Nick Roome: So if you're using like a LLM chatbot assistant where you say, Hey, I need a view, did it, does x, y, and Z on my banking app, and you know, that banking app has some sort of way to translate that request hook into the data pieces and display that to you in a personalized view, that would be pretty cool.

[00:19:29] Nick Roome: I don't, again, like it's hopeful. I really hope it does become a thing because I can think of a million different use cases for this. But what are your, what are your thoughts on a personalized interface generated on demand? Um,

[00:19:41] Barry Kirby: I, I've two threads. One is when you're designing anything vaguely to do with the safety critical system, this is just gonna be interesting.

[00:19:50] Barry Kirby: I'm not saying it's, it's, it's a no. 'cause I do love the idea of dynamic dashboards and things like that, uh, to show you what you need to see and what you need to act on. How do you test it? How do you, [00:20:00] um, how do you assure such a platform? So that's me looking at that whole safety critical element, which has a whole bunch of, um, stuff around it that you just have to be sure about what's happening, or at least understand the behavior in a, in a vaguely understandable, repeatable way.

[00:20:15] Barry Kirby: However, put that in a little box. The rest of it, I think it'll put it, it puts a lot more emphasis on us as, uh, UX designers to make sure that things like your style guides and that are absolutely solid, um, to make sure that you've got all of them elements in place and that they can be, that. The more about the interoperability, 'cause I've seen quite a lot of style guides that you put them together with all their all their elements, but not.

[00:20:41] Barry Kirby: You don't necessarily think about every single interaction 'cause you always think about them in certain, in in predefined frames of one way or another. What this is really talking about is saying, right, we're gonna we'll take your toolbox and and, and use that. And so you any sort of we, and he's gonna take a while to get the guidance.

[00:20:58] Barry Kirby: Absolutely. Right. But it [00:21:00] could be quite cool. Like I said, I really like the ideas, the idea of these dynamic dashboards that dashboards are really popular at the moment. Uh, and I've got, I've got whole lots of criticism around that. But the fact that if you can get it to dynamically show what is important to your business or your system or your, uh, enterprise, whatever it is, rather than having just seven or eight different charts there waiting to you look at every day and that type of thing, um, it could be really quite cool.

[00:21:25] Barry Kirby: I, the versatility of it could be amazing. I still, we need to make sure it gets away from just being glitzy. Yeah, showy and, and and stuff, which I kind of feel it's at the moment.

[00:21:36] Nick Roome: The author writes here in the article that the design from the design perspective ending off these fixed screens, but rather doing the constraints behind the scenes, you know, establishing those safety rails, the evaluation criteria that shape how the interfaces operate.

[00:21:52] Nick Roome: So the toolkits, like you said to make these things happen. Alright. Barry, you had you had brought up voice [00:22:00] interfaces in your initial reaction. What's two? Since 2000? What is it this year? Is this the year?

[00:22:08] Barry Kirby: No, it's not the year. It's absolutely not the year. Right. So where I, like I said, when I first started working in, in voice, it was largely done on a hardware card, and you had to have that done.

[00:22:19] Barry Kirby: And it was largely very much keyword driven and with strong structures and things like that. And so you had to, in your head, know what your, what the, um, structure was of the command chain that you were using. And you had to hold, you had to hold that as a mental model. Now you then move into software driven voice control.

[00:22:40] Barry Kirby: Great. And that was much better. It would understand, um, different people's accents and things like that. Brilliant. And we now, you know, we have trying come up to now and we've got things like, um, Alexa and basically home agents and things like that, that do understand keyword based, but more con sort of more conversational ai, uh, sorry, uh, voice [00:23:00] interaction.

[00:23:01] Barry Kirby: But you still have to know what the system can do. So if you've got the Spotify app or whatever going there, you know that you can then get music or, but if you haven't got another app, if you haven't got the BBCI player app, then you can't pull up BBC I player stuff. And so you have to sort of know the structures of what it's doing, and it's still got keywords that it's listening for.

[00:23:22] Barry Kirby: We are not really, in my opinion, gonna see true, useful voice technology that can replace whatever else is going on until you can have truly conversational AI that you don't need, uh, sorry, conversational interaction where you can just walk in and say, turn the lights on. And it will do that.

[00:23:40] Barry Kirby: And you don't have without any presetting up. It will understand that it, once you just switch the lights on in the room that you are in and do that now or set the temperature and things like that it's, it's miles better than it was in 2020, don't get me wrong, but it's still miles away from being useful.

[00:23:56] Nick Roome: I see where this is coming from. This is coming from, of the, [00:24:00] a lot of this stems from AI and how a lot of these LLMs have voice modes now. Mm-hmm. And fine. I think we still need kind of along the lines of number two, the age agentic layer. I think we need that age agentic layer over over all the other things that we use as somebody to.

[00:24:20] Nick Roome: Interpret what we say into commands. Somebody wrote this was a couple years ago at this point, but when LLMs were, you know, when the voice mode just came out, they had they had, or maybe it wasn't even voice mode. It was, it was taking raw, a transcript of what somebody had said and say and translate it into an a, a home assistant command.

[00:24:42] Nick Roome: I almost said the word, I'm sorry. I didn't wanna wake anybody's devices, uh, into a home assistant command. So when they would say, oh, it's, it's a little cold in here, right? The, then that, that thing that they wrote would translate that into, turn the thermostat up by 10 degrees and send it to their voice assistant.

[00:24:59] Nick Roome: So that [00:25:00] way they would talk naturally. But the things that they were saying were interpreted by that middle agent layer, it's not, wasn't truly an agent. It was, uh, an LLM processing that stuff and then turning it into a command for the home device. So that way you know, the heat turns on when they say it's a little cold in here.

[00:25:20] Nick Roome: So I think something like that to say, I wanna, I wanna listen to some music. They know which app to go to and which playlist to play, depending on the context where you're at. Is it how, what volume to play it at are, are you in a gym? Do you have your headphones in? Are you in your car? Do you wanna blast the music?

[00:25:39] Nick Roome: Like, you know, those types of things. Okay we're at number five and we're about halfway through the hour, so I, I think this might be a full hour breakdown here. We'll see let's get into this la uh, this, this number five, and then we'll take a little break and we'll, we'll come back to these. Number five, micro interactions becoming the language.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Nick Roome: So the key thing here from the article is that micro interactions are serving or they, they anticipate that these micro interactions will serve as the primary communication between interfaces and users, where, uh, these actions are confirmed without requiring people to pause and digest information, uh, or confirmation messages and provide feedback.

[00:26:25] Nick Roome: I don't know what do you think, Barry? That, that seems a little

[00:26:30] Barry Kirby: I know, and that's another thing. I, so I think this is a, there is definitely a digital generational element aspect to this because I think that there are, that the ways that we in fact, I would say there's probably a, a difference in the way that I interact with things like phones and things like like them and my devices, and they'll, it'll be different to the way that you interact with your devices, which will definitely be very different to the way that my kids interact with the devices.

[00:26:58] Barry Kirby: It's almost the, [00:27:00] this is a, this is almost the emoji argument of how do I use an emoji versus why do you use an emoji? What is your, what, what does your red plant mean to you basically is what this is talking about. And so then when you add, add on these micro interactions, yes, it's the it adds context and interaction with, with what you are doing.

[00:27:18] Barry Kirby: The thing I find hard with it is when you're designing stuff, what are you, why are you doing it? What are you trying to elicit out of the micro interaction? And therefore how do you make sure that that message, if you're using this as a primary language rather than just a, um, a a a nice to have cool little thing, how are you making sure that that, that your messaging is getting across in the way that you intend?

[00:27:42] Barry Kirby: And I think that some of this might be just down to, I'm an old, older, uh, older designer. And maybe I think that there is def, there is definitely a. Oh, in the way that language itself changes the way we use it, these type of things end up [00:28:00] being a, um, a nuance of, of language and, uh, an evolution. It's still not the language though.

[00:28:06] Barry Kirby: I don't think.

[00:28:08] Nick Roome: So really what we're talking about here is when we talk about micro interactions, we're talking about things like when you've, uh, they, they have a couple examples in here, but like the decorative flourishes. So a button shifting color when you hover over it, or a pro progress indicator filling a celebration emoji when you finish a task.

[00:28:29] Nick Roome: These are heavily considered like these, nice to have details, and the author even says they were considered nice, polished, but weren't really necessary. And I guess the argument here is that those are becoming more necessary, and I would disagree that they're becoming more necessary. I, I think that as we have more capacity to work on things, we could send.

[00:28:59] Nick Roome: Agents [00:29:00] off to do things like these nice to have thing. I think there's probably still going to be a primary focus from a design perspective, from a human factors perspective, to make sure that that UI is usable and molds to the way that they're thinking about things, their mental map, their mental model, the way that they are expecting it to go in terms of the flow and how, you know, from a system perspective, it actually makes sense to interject these things in the moment.

[00:29:27] Nick Roome: And I think those are the things that we focus on because we know that those are the most important things. If you don't have a system that works for you or that works in the way that you intended to, who cares if a celebration emoji comes up? I like, I'm super frustrated by the point that I even get to the finishing task that it doesn't matter.

[00:29:44] Nick Roome: Oh, yay an emoji. Okay, great. It's like it doesn't matter. So sending off agents to do those nice little flourishes. I think is going to be a thing that maybe as we have more capacity and work with these agents, we can, it's a, [00:30:00] it's a capacity issue. It's not a, it's not a technology issue. We know

[00:30:04] Barry Kirby: how to do it.

[00:30:05] Barry Kirby: Okay. I guess there is an element here as well is when you look at the, at the author's list of list developments. So a but shifting code, a progress indicator filling, I don't think that's a micro interaction stuff that's almost a key tenant of, uh, of good UX design where you are showing stuff that is a button is available or it's not, or, and, or a progress indicator.

[00:30:23] Barry Kirby: The flourish, like you say, is the, is the little pot of, um, confetti that goes off when something is finished or you have a, um, that, that celebration piece that's possibly the, the flourish. Um, not to

[00:30:37] Nick Roome: nitpick, but I think, I think the progress indicator filling is literally, is there an animation from point A to point B or does it just stack from one to two?

[00:30:45] Nick Roome: Which doesn't matter.

[00:30:48] Barry Kirby: True. But, um, I think there is, I think there's possibly something that I think it, the way we've already ripped it, ripped it shreds to a certain extent. I think there is, um, there's an [00:31:00] element here that there's possibly confusion over what is good UX and what is the, the nice to, is the nice to have stuff now becoming necessary?

[00:31:08] Barry Kirby: No, I don't think it is. It's still nice to have. Yeah. So no, they don't win that one. I don't think.

[00:31:15] Nick Roome: All right, well, we'll continue the roast after We liked some of these so far. We do. Yeah. I, I don't want this to be a firing squad because there's a lot of the good stuff here. Oh, no. The, the good stuff is in the second half.

[00:31:26] Nick Roome: The good stuff is in the second half. We'll get to the second half right after this. Uh, stay. Stay with us.

[00:31:33] Nick Roome: Yes, huge. Thank you as always. To our Patreon patrons, you truly keep the lights on over here and everything is running because of you. We really couldn't do this without you and really appreciate everything that you give to the show. We seriously you're the greatest of all time. You're the goats, as the kids would say.

[00:31:51] Nick Roome: Do kids say that? I don't know. What do kids say now? Uh, let's get into the second half. Barry, you said that the second half was gonna have the good stuff, and we [00:32:00] start with this one where ar is transitioning from demonstration to daily application. Um, yeah. And I said I didn't want this to be a firing squad, so I'm going to, I'm going to quietly mention like two things and then Homer Simpson into this bush over here.

[00:32:17] Nick Roome: I think there's two things that, that I wanna bring up. And the first thing is that, yes, technology is getting better. There are many makers out there that are providing devices that are less cumbersome and less what's the word I'm looking for? They're less cumbersome and there's less barriers to like putting the thing on and using it.

[00:32:40] Nick Roome: They're coming now in like glasses forms. Great. When you think about augmented reality, there's still a lot of barriers that we haven't figured out, like battery life, like projection mapping into your own personalized [00:33:00] environment. The. The actual apps on the thing that, that make it effective in the integration of those apps.

[00:33:08] Nick Roome: There's still a lot of things that we still need to figure out. I don't think we're quite at the daily application, but you know what, I'm gonna be optimistic and say yes, December 31st, 2026, we will be closer.

[00:33:23] Barry Kirby: Well, we've gotta be closer. Um, closer to what I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I think what, to be fair, you are right in that where we've come from to where we are now, we are in a very different space. I mean, even going back 15 years, uh, Google, Google Glass comes out and people were having all sorts of uses trying to work out how to use this augmented reality capability.

[00:33:48] Barry Kirby: And more recently, I think the biggest push out is what the Meta RayBan sunglasses, um, that have had, um, a number of different interactions with them. [00:34:00] Fundamentally, this boils down to what makes it useful and there are some specific jobs where yes, absolutely this sort of thing. Is helpful as long as it can map the terrain that you are working with and you are using that augmented piece.

[00:34:18] Barry Kirby: Some people seem to think that if you could just throw up your, um, your email on your glasses, that that's augmented reality. It's not. That's just a, a, a mixed reality of being able to use being able to see through things while you're doing it. It's got to actually allow you to interact with that environment in some way, or at least allow what you are seeing on your glasses to be interacted with the environment in some way.

[00:34:40] Barry Kirby: And there are only so many times and places where in the thing where that's actually truly useful on a daily civilian application. So you or I wearing them? I saw one some 'cause I, I love playing with this sort of gadget. There are other roles though where you could actually see we are probably at a place where some of it can be used.

[00:34:59] Barry Kirby: So [00:35:00] maintenance types, tasks. Uh, the, um, surgery has, has always been one of these use cases that, um, that the, that this is crying out to use. Um, use well, um, we still haven't got round the how do you keep them sterile and things like that. But we probably closer. So I think I'm going to lean into what you said.

[00:35:19] Barry Kirby: I think by December we will definitely be closer to, to better be, uh, it being used. But to, um. To quote a, um, a colleague of mine here in, in, in the uk. The way the way we use terms like augmented reality and nothing like the actual reality of, of using them in the first place. Yeah. Can we, can we stop shooting these now?

[00:35:42] Barry Kirby: We've gotta have some, um, we we're gonna have some

[00:35:44] Nick Roome: fun. We, we were optimistic about that one. December. We're gonna be closer. Yes. Alright, number seven here. Personalization, that respects boundaries. They, the, the author here says people want these personalized experience until they realize what the system needs to know to do [00:36:00] them.

[00:36:00] Nick Roome: And I think they bring up Netflix's recommendation engine and, you know, they, they opt in to personalize when they thumbs up something. That's kind of what you signed up for. But the difference is like, you know, take like a information broker and having advertisements being shown to you because of things that you may have hovered on a website to, or things that you glanced at once is what they say here.

[00:36:29] Nick Roome: And the hope here is that these personalization things will respect your boundaries. When it comes to privacy, and we can talk a little bit more about privacy later, but this non-intrusive way to present some of these personalization things. Is, is, you know what? I'm gonna be hopeful and say, yes, this is going to become a thing.

[00:36:51] Nick Roome: No, don't shoot it down.

[00:36:53] Barry Kirby: I'm not gonna shoot it down. I think there is, there's an, there's an element here about we want to have our cake and eat [00:37:00] it, because really what we're talking about is not whether I'm getting shown the right advert on, on Google, that's how it manifests, is we see, oh, why, why is my, um, Facebook, I've just, I'm just searching for something on Google.

[00:37:13] Barry Kirby: Why is Facebook suddenly showing me things that I was looking at? Um, that isn't for me, the, uh, the sinister part of this, that's actually just good business and good marketing in the fact that I know that you are interested in something and I'm going to do what I can to put my product in front of you.

[00:37:30] Barry Kirby: We have that when it, when you walk into any grocery store, any, any shop at physical shop, that shop is laid out. It's not just randomly laid as some of them are, uh, but it's not randomly laid out for whatever it, that everything in that shop is strategically put together to appeal to the people who are gonna walk through the door.

[00:37:47] Barry Kirby: So from that perspective, this isn't a, that isn't the whole, the way that they use data isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, it's, when it's the undercurrent of it, it's the [00:38:00] how they sell the data to, to each other. Um, that basically you are providing data and then they're, then they are profiting off you, not how, not from your interaction with them, but just off your indu, off your interaction being sort to somebody else.

[00:38:15] Barry Kirby: It's the way that it's sold into the black in, into the black market, the dark web and things like that. It's the way that the governments use the data without you knowing. I mean, I was shocked. Um, I shouldn't have been, but I was shocked when I was looking at a product that came out with CEX in one of the, one of the, uh, one of the radicals that we've been looking at, and there is a women's hormone tracker.

[00:38:40] Barry Kirby: And my wife turned around and said, oh, just if you do mention that, just make sure to recommend to every woman in the United States that they don't take that up. Uh, they, they, they don't use it because anything you put into that system can be sold and or ab obtained by, uh, by the government and used against, uh, used against them particularly in post row versus Wade.[00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Barry Kirby: And you're like, wow. Didn't even. If you are just looking at this sort of stuff, would it enter your mind to think that deep into how your data is being used? So we get all up in arms about how your data is being used to, to promote stuff to you? I think that's, that's nothing. It's the deep, it's the sinister, it's the stuff that goes on with your data, you don't know.

[00:39:19] Barry Kirby: So how we go about this, given what you, um, mentioned earlier about, um, about how different, um, governments, uh, and uh, dealing with data, how we deal with this is going to be quite interesting. And I don't think any any how we manage that and be less opaque about it, I think would be a really, really good thing.

[00:39:43] Barry Kirby: And, but it, it's gonna take some big players. It's gonna take your metas, your Microsofts, here's,

[00:39:51] Nick Roome: Here's some direct evidence that the tide is shifting. And I like to be positive. So the thing here is that yeah, we're talking about data. We're talking [00:40:00] about our rights with privacy. I will say that oftentimes there are California is at the forefront of some of these privacy initiatives.

[00:40:08] Nick Roome: And one that just came out this week, uh, is the drop I don't know if it's like the drop act or drop. Function, drop, delete, done, uh, delete request and opt out platform. That's what it stands for, right? Um, and what this does is allows California residents to log in and have these data brokers delete your data just like that.

[00:40:32] Nick Roome: Uh, wow. That's what it's for. And this is for anyone who's a California resident, it's privacy.ca.gov/drop. So you can go and do this right now. If you're a California resident, you can get started. You can sign in and, and, uh, verify your eligibility by saying You live in California, so I couldn't do it here in Arizona.

[00:40:51] Nick Roome: You know, create your profile and then you, you submit your request and then boom, all your data's gone. And that is awesome and it's good to see that things like this are [00:41:00] happening. Okay. Uh, we have just a few more. So let's, let's kind of speed run through these as we have about 13 minutes left. Let's see.

[00:41:09] Nick Roome: So we talked about personalization that respects boundaries, accessibility, becoming foundational and not supplemental. Uh, you seem pretty hopeful on this one.

[00:41:17] Barry Kirby: Yeah, I think so. I think the idea that we build accessibility into into what we do or a standard rather than it being a bolt-on is a really good thing.

[00:41:26] Barry Kirby: And there are standards out there that that, that allow you to check for these sort of things, but the role is almost an extra rather than being the way we do work. So I think if we can build this in, and really it's about pro, you can, there is a business case for doing this in the fact that we normally think about people, you know, when we talk about accessibility, people being blind, but still being able to access to, actually, it's just being able to change the size of the text.

[00:41:51] Barry Kirby: So d people with different reading styles or di or different reading abilities can engage, engage with that stuff, as well as having the big stuff like read aloud and things like that. So [00:42:00] accessibility is becoming broader. If you look at your, if you've got an iPhone or an, or an Android, look at the accessibility functions that are available within the accessibility area that is much broader than it was 10 years ago.

[00:42:14] Barry Kirby: Um, 10 years ago, you might have some changes of light and changes of, of size and stuff. Whereas now there are so many different elements that you can tune your device for it to be more accessible to you.

[00:42:24] Nick Roome: Yeah, I think this is going places. I think there's you know, there's, there's a lot of programs at least that are government funded here that require that require projects to adhere to something called 5 0 8 compliance and section 5 0 8.

[00:42:38] Nick Roome: And it, it has a lot to do with like the web con content accessibility stuff. And so I think, building that in is good and having a lot of having a lot of. Companies that do government contracts that need to do this by default almost Anyway, so why not roll it into the other stuff that they're working on?

[00:42:59] Nick Roome: [00:43:00] Yeah, it makes sense to me. It tracks even though I, Jed in the original thing that, that this is probably not going to be as much of an importance given the current administration. I think we, I think it still is important and I think a lot of people know it's important and like you said, accessibility is a good business case.

[00:43:21] Nick Roome: You design for all and then, or you design for a special, um, population and everyone benefits from it. So I'm right there with you. All right. This cross platform UX that works. This one's cool to me. I think the, um, I really do think there's a lot of focus on this cross platform ux and I think it comes from everything from like shopping all the way down to.

[00:43:46] Nick Roome: Uh, like actual utility apps, right? So I'm thinking about two examples in particular that every, not everyone, but a lot of people have experience with one of, one of which I'll just mention, like Amazon, right? They're doing a good job no matter if you [00:44:00] log on to their mobile app to buy something or the desktop, it's kind of a seamless experience.

[00:44:05] Nick Roome: The things that you looked at on one, and I know that's a very simplistic answer, or it's a very simplistic example, but it's an example that works, right? The things that you look at on one platform are going to be there on another platform. The lists that you do it, it's applied on both. The other thing that I think works really well is, uh, and this is a selfish plug for you to get on our Discord server, um, but Discord is also a really good one that works where you can log in on your phone, log in on any device, and, you know, chat seamlessly across and those messages sync and all, you know, all that stuff.

[00:44:39] Nick Roome: Again, very simplistic thing, it's mainly just a call for you to get into our discord so you can have conversations with us. We're bored and want to have conversations, but I think, um, you know, there, there are many, many other scenarios where this would work well, like task software or any of these.

[00:44:56] Nick Roome: Pieces where they would need to hold information on a database and then [00:45:00] retrieve it when you access it on a different platform, whether it's, you know, a dedicated device or your phone or your desktop or your work computer or whatever. I think we're all working towards a much better future here.

[00:45:14] Barry Kirby: Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, for me, a really good example at the moment and as I think I've mentioned them twice already, Microsoft have really got the game together with Office 3, 6 5. You can be doing it on the app, you can have a web version of it, you can do it on your phone, on a tablet, and you've largely got access.

[00:45:30] Barry Kirby: So you, you, it's smooth across the different bits. I can be working on my on my laptop and then pick it up by, edit the same document in the evening on my, um, on my phone and have other people playing and on the same document at the same time. So I can choose the most appropriate u UX that I want to engage with.

[00:45:50] Barry Kirby: And I think that's where a lot of these are going. It's almost less important that you have a specific interaction with the app. It's the data that's important. It's the content [00:46:00] that you are working with that is now the prime driver and the more accessible you make that, you make the that data then irrelevant of the platform.

[00:46:08] Barry Kirby: So whether you are pro, whether you are producing an app and it's going on to the play store or the, uh, app store or wherever, you've got to be able to do the interactions and be able to do the same thing across all of them. You want to seamless experience. And the, the we, we definitely working towards that because again, the business benefit is there.

[00:46:28] Barry Kirby: The, um, the, the, it's, the more you can have that seamless cross-platform engagement means that, that your audience is gonna stay with your product for longer, um, and engage with them. So it is abso that's absolutely something that is, has made a huge amount of progress, I think over the past five years.

[00:46:46] Barry Kirby: And I think we'll we'll do even more so over, over the next 12 months.

[00:46:49] Nick Roome: Yeah, last one here. Uh, biometric authentication becomes the norm. I'm kind of surprised that this is a prediction because I always, I already kind of feel like it is, but maybe it's just for the way that I use it. You know, [00:47:00] I, I use my thumbprint to, to get into my phone.

[00:47:03] Nick Roome: I use it for the pass key authentication when I get into certain, um, programs and, and, uh, log into certain accounts. To me it's just, it's there and I do it. And I think the big point here is mainly not necessarily the biometrics piece, but this passwordless login where you enter a verification code instead of a password, or you enter in a like a authenticator code or, you know, hit the numbers that are matching on the screen. And I think it's these ways that we reduce the cognitive load of needing to remember a password and providing other options to verify that yes, it is in fact the person that we want to get into this account that is trying to get there. And I think, I think it's, I think it we're close if we're not there already when passwords will disappear.

[00:47:53] Nick Roome: I don't think that's this year, but I think it will go away even more by December 31st.

[00:47:59] Barry Kirby: I think you're right. I think we're [00:48:00] definitely moving that way. I think however, there is a lot of, and I would say large organizations, I would say probably more defense or oriented organizations as well that will just, that just grip the password.

[00:48:11] Barry Kirby: Like, um, like they just don't want it to die yet, yet they still insist on on 12 to 14 characters and make them really hard, uh, to remember. And yet you must have a set, have a separate password for every single system, which nobody ever does. We won't use password um, platform, uh, programs and stuff like that.

[00:48:30] Barry Kirby: Uh, the, for some reason, um, cyber professionals are really reluctant to let get rid of the traditional password when. Um, yet on a grassroots basis, we all use face ID on our phones, as you've said, you know, you can use fingerprint, uh, to get into your phone and things like that. Biometric is almost a grass grassroots movement.

[00:48:50] Barry Kirby: The really, the big, uh, the big players need to embrace and this is almost, it's a real UX issue because just before Christmas, I was part of a panel, um, at a, [00:49:00] at a conference that was highlighting the fact that uh. A lot of security personnel, cybersecurity personnel are going, we're saying, oh yes, you need this, you need this.

[00:49:08] Barry Kirby: We've got no, you need to make it usable. You need to make it so people engage with it and it's easier. Let's get, it shouldn't be cyber, uh, sorry. Security shouldn't be a dirty word. Security should be integrated. But there is an element around security. Security still likes to be, likes to be special. Hope this will hopefully get away from that.

[00:49:25] Nick Roome: Yeah. Uh, well that, that's the story for this week. Uh, huge thank you to our friends over at UX Collective and special shout out to the author of this paper is Aaron Bick. Uh, they're the chief Design Officer at SAP. So a lot of these are, are obviously driven by industry perspective. But huge thank you.

[00:49:42] Nick Roome: This is a great article for us to discuss. Uh, if you wanna follow along with all the other articles that we post, we have a discord like I just mentioned. You can join us for more discussion on these stories and much more. We're not gonna take a break 'cause we already did that. Let's just get into the last part of the show.

[00:49:57] Nick Roome: We'll skip it Cam from, for this week. We have plenty of discussion to [00:50:00] talk about for next time. But Barry, what is your, one more thing.

[00:50:04] Barry Kirby: So I'll have a quick shout to say in the UK we've just had sort, sort of snow flurries and as I think I mentioned in the, in the preshow of the, currently sat in the middle of waiting for the, um, a big storm to come and smack us in the uk.

[00:50:16] Barry Kirby: So we just can't deal with snow, we can't deal with anything outside of our, um, out of our usual mediocre, mediocre temperature. So everything ground to a halt this week, which I just found from a human facty perspective, I just find really amusing that we are in the vast edge case and that everybody's going, why can't the council grit our roads?

[00:50:35] Barry Kirby: And the problem's like, well, 'cause we only do it like two or three times a year. 'cause the rest time it's just wet anyway. Uh, so there's a whole educate expectation piece. My really 1, 1, 1 more thing, which I mentioned at the top of the show is, I had a bit of a mini project over the, um, over the Christmas period to really look at how AI and LLMs are being used to develop software.

[00:50:57] Barry Kirby: Having spoken to a few friends of mine now who are software developers [00:51:00] and how they're using AI in their day-to-day now, I did a whole, but I used to be a, a software engineer and, um, as I guess my first career and so, but haven't really kept up with the. Engineer, um, software engineering standards, and so just leave that to other, well, more qualified people.

[00:51:14] Barry Kirby: But I, let's delve in, let's try a few different tools and really try and develop some of the software I've been trying to develop for a long time. And so one of the things I've been trying to develop is a, um, human factors, um, tools for doing, um, do user trials and measurements and things like that and stuff that I'd been trying to develop for the longest time.

[00:51:30] Barry Kirby: I was able to use two or three different LLM based platforms to develop the software in minutes. Something that would've taken me a long time and actually to a decent quality, to something that I was able to test, go into the code, look at it and do all that sort of stuff. And I have to say it's blown me away developing proper, full on, um, stuff that I could actually go in and, and, and get into the back of.

[00:51:55] Barry Kirby: So it's not just developing something that's just a fancy bit of, um, ux, um, but [00:52:00] actually look at the stuff in the background and how he's put it together. I had great fun and, um, a proper busman's holiday. Bit of a, a bit of a thing. And, um, yeah, thoroughly enjoyed myself.

[00:52:10] Nick Roome: Lookout world, Barry's vibe coating.

[00:52:13] Nick Roome: Yeah. My one more thing's very, very different from yours. It's, um, you ever get a power tool in your hands and you just feel unstoppable? Yes. Uh, I, I received a weed wacker as a gift from my parents. This, this, uh, holiday season. And man, that thing is fun. Uh, it just has so much p it's an electric one, so you don't have to carry on the cord with you, and it just does the spinning and the weed wacking, and then you're just whacking everything and you just, oh, it's so much fun.

[00:52:47] Nick Roome: And then you spin an hour out there and then you realize that you're covered in dirt and peppered with rocks and just, uh, you should have not worn shorts and flip flops. So this is your reminder to wear, uh, PPE when, [00:53:00] whenever you can. Uh, it's a PSA for you. OSHA would be very proud of me, I think, for the gear that I was wearing.

[00:53:06] Nick Roome: Shorts and flip flops, uh, with glasses, no no protective goggles. Uh, yeah, don't do that. Don't, don't be like me. Be like Barry and Vibe Code. Uh, but that's it for, that's it for today. Everyone feel like this episode, enjoy some of the discussion about, uh, the upcoming stuff you can expect for 2026.

[00:53:25] Nick Roome: I'll encourage you to go listen to any of our other prediction based episodes and see how wrong we got it. Uh, comment, wherever you're listening where, uh, with what you think of this story this week. For more in-depth discussion, you can always join us on our Discord community and comment over there.

[00:53:39] Nick Roome: Visit our official website, sign up for our newsletter, stay up to date with all the latest human Factors news. If you like what you hear, you wanna support the show, there's a few ways that you can do that. One, you can leave us a five star review or wherever you're watching or listening right now that is free for you to do and really helps out the show.

[00:53:54] Nick Roome: Two, uh, the thing that helps out a little bit more is that you can tell your friends about us. Uh, [00:54:00] if you're embarrassed by us, then what are you doing here? I, I don't know. You should just tell your friends about us so they can be embarrassed too. Or three, if you have the financial means to and want to contribute to this, uh, show that way.

[00:54:10] Nick Roome: You can consider supporting us on Patreon, and that goes to much more than just the show that helps support the lab, uh, and the, the folks that we have in the lab creating fun and interesting ways, which we'll always have more stuff to talk about later. As always, links to all of our socials and our website are in the description of this episode.

[00:54:26] Nick Roome: Mr. Barry Kirby, thank you for being on the show today. Where can our listeners go and find you if they wanna talk about vibe coding?

[00:54:32] Barry Kirby: If you wanna come and talk about that, find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, um, most socials except for the ones we don't talk about anymore. As well as if you wanna listen to me chat to really cool and inspiring individuals and teams and groups in the Human Factors community.

[00:54:46] Barry Kirby: Find me on 1202 The Human Factors Podcast at 1202 podcast.com.

[00:54:50] Nick Roome: As for me, I've been your host, Nick Rome. You can find me on Discord and across social media at Nick Rome. If you're watching live, stay tuned for the post show. For the rest of you, thanks again [00:55:00] for tuning into Human Factors Cast. Until next time.

[00:55:04] Nick Roome: It depends.