This week on the show, we talk about how to unlock creativity in the workplace through the use of Human Factors Psychology and answer some questions from the community about knowing how Human Factors is for you, certificates in HCI being worth the investment, and the best and worst UX/HF applications we’ve experienced this week.
Recorded on March 9th, 2022, hosted by Nick Roome & Barry Kirby. Air date March 10th, 2022.
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Welcome to human factors yeah your weekly podcast for human factors psychology and design. What's going on everybody this episode 200 37 were actually pretty recording this episode on 3/9/2022 for an air date of March 10 and this is human factors cats I am host Nick Rome I am joined today by Mister berry Kirby Hey how you doing good I'm also joined today by a slew of technology issues so we'll see if we can. We'll see if we can fog throughout the day stick with us we're trying to get this episode you're right everybody's going to your ride that's gonna be fine we got a great show for you tonight we'd be talking about how to unlock creativity in the workplace through the use of human factors and later we're gonna answer some questions in the community about how do you know the human factors is for you. And talking also about undergraduate certificates in HCI being worth it and also what's the best and worst U. X. you've experienced this week but first we got some programming notes I do want to go over just quickly our historical approach to. Interviews on this show. Even factors cast so in the past we've kind of had our interviews focused around conferences and I think we're still going to do that we've also had the occasional one off interview with somebody doing something interesting so I know we've done like the beeline reader interview with Nicole we've also done you know other interviews about you know different cove it. Methods that we can employ a for communication we've we've done other kind of standalone interviews but I think what we're gonna do now. Is since since berry and I've been collaborating for quite some time we're going to pass the baton of interviews the standalone interviews over to Barry and his show and we'll let you know about them here we're trying to tire shows a little bit closer together to make it more cohesive for you all you know I think Barry and I truly see this is a collaborative effort and so we are going to start referring to trouble to the human factors podcast and human factors cast we've already been doing it but as sister podcast and we're gonna start kind of. Just let you all know what's going on over there and vice versa so just to start us off you know Barry actually just interviewed friend of the show and past guest Tony Andre over on our sister podcast well though to the human factors podcast about a wonderful new initiative that he started up. Yeah until he was absolutely brilliant so he's going to be an amazing background in building his own company and I found it quite inspiring deficit that's some something to what I've done but actually he didn't reduce could successfully many many large book because you have these folks on healthcare which is a domain that I've never really been involved with I hate when you consider just how much human factors involved it what they're doing so that was real but he also took the opportunity to announce it is offering a free human factors support to any company that is supporting the LS community so if any health care medical coming out that I was developing a drug support that type of thing around ALS full plus you've got personal reasons why he's doing that Danny's offering that that free support so you'll know more about that case of of trouble too and listen to what he did he story and why he's doing it and and then get in touch with them I'm a great manager yes very thorough. Yeah speaking of healthcare symposium or healthcare in general we are gonna have some coverage of healthcare symposium for you all stay tuned on that like I said we're finalizing some plans on that end with Tony Andre of all people go figure. Anyway we know why you're here you're here for the news so let's go ahead and get into it. That's right this is the part of the show all about human factors news human. Anyone can affect your shoes very what do we have of this week. This week's stories how employees should nurture relations at friendship and support amongst co workers to unlock creativity so employees who want to see the creative thinking the work force should embody supportive friendships between colleagues as the key to unlocking more resourcefulness and innovation the study from the university of bath school of management reveals capital co workers inspires people to be supportive to the pot reserve home showing the co workers have a significant role to play in enabling couples to cope with balancing demands of work and family life. And please take this policy from co workers home with them and in loving relationships they transferred the support to that partner this might mean that they encourage them to open about stresses to secret and resolve issues what to make improvements to the juggle of work and life at family life arrangements the benefit the family. Over above the work policies or interventions by supervisors it is informal support from co workers the stands I was having the biggest impact on an individual's ability to manage their work life balance spelling of to benefit the part of the term an intern they were creative thinking work. Research suggests organizations took effect employees more flexibility to manage a Karen cover with a colleague without intervention from manages. The research also alerts employees employers to the pitfalls of working practice an expectation taking a whole a toll on home life encouraging employees to be mindful of the detrimental impacts on relationships. Researchers acknowledge that they could be drawbacks in relying on co workers for support with home and family matters with home detention jealous and upset about the closeness of work spouse relationships they suggest future research could examine the potential of this relationship dynamic to promote conflict at home. So Nick how do you think that your work relationships affect your work life balance. Are generally the I don't know I I'm of 2 minds of this article and I'm going to briefly try to summarize them on one hand. I see the merits in in trying to foster relationships are people actually care about each other and that care being transferred over to personal life I I see I see that right so like you know my my relationship with the people that I work with is very supportive and understanding and flexible right that's kind of the the tenants by we that we live by we're all remote and so. If something needs to happen during the day you know we don't really need each other there to rely on as long as we can to make the meetings that were you know required to attend we do the work that we're required to do it's not a big issue and so I think that definitely carries over into my personal life where. That understanding from work. And and the people that I work directly with. The carries over you know if I need to take care of my son or something while my wife goes to physical therapy or something like that right so I I I get it I understand on the same note I'm going to be a little bit critical here I must say this is capitalism at its finest because what makes a. Person. I feel more comfortable at work is good for the company might not always be the best for the individual working there because you know they might feel an allegiance some sort of belonging to that company and maybe not seek other opportunities that better serve their end goals and so I'm I'm gonna be a little bit critical of like you know we're like a family here you can't leave it's it's a little bit manipulative is a little bit exploitive and I do also I want to bring attention to that but I do see the merit of like having it impact your your home life to. The berry I'm I'm interested in what you think because you run your own company and and so like how do you how are you approaching this it. This is such an interesting thing because I've sold receded from both sides the if I'm part of the team and you know I'm not city manager of a team I just didn't get. Are you part of a team if you've got some some friends that you get on with I mean you spend 8:00 hours a day you know a significant portion of your waking telling during the day with these people hello 247 any thought if you don't have a good relationship if there's a brace of nest that then that just makes 8:00 hours a day reading pleasant so I can see how open that negative approach that some if you have a bad relationship work you then go home Grampian stuff then and that can have can affect your life I get a lot. You got a really good relationship is really really good as well you can have left I've seen it go too far and I'm you know when it might be a clear is what I've seen it but I've been spent a lot of time thinking that I'm having a good laugh what work will be some good friends actually I should be more heads down getting privatized into work and get work done because as you say you that for work to do for a specific reason so doing that it's getting that balance right I think you yes having the support to work is a good thing and the okay I can you know if you go to good work relationship than fantastic that will spill over both sides because I do I struggle to see this work life balance I might die I don't like the price up for work like blind because there you don't have to disagree with you it's very difficult just to switch off from one of the other. As a manager and some even mine company I'm. I can foster the right environment I can have the break down barriers as much as I can but you can't force the stuff. Do you do with that I think you can force that you could like say something or you can. Wells mindful recruitment so I don't just recruit people full the 4 position I've got the skills yes but I've also heard of the book we might are you going to fit with the team that I've already called all that maybe the team I I hope to make whatever you know which of the respective you'll okay so you can recruiting for that but also the best new crew is not the person you employ you go through interviews not so stuff and no matter what happens no matter how good your interview technique the person that walks up is not the same person that you interviewed they're going to be different they go on to actually positive or negative so you've also got to be be able to work with that to some extent so. That's a medium where I'm going well it depends but denied yeah I think this is it for me the middle these articles are you saying that that so says it put some research behind so that we probably already knew and he's already kind of that and I don't think this accident which we can do about it if I'm being brutally honest. Yeah I mean you are showing done yeah that's it all right thanks everyone so. Look I think this is. We didn't pick the story you'll pick the story I think I think let's let's get that out of the. What that looks like it is an interesting this is really interesting when you when you really break it down from the science or psychology really behind workplace relationships and I think there's a couple things that we can kind of say to level set this conversation and we'll kind of look at the human factors and psychology behind. These workplace relationships as kind of a base until like we normally do we can look at the stories through the frame and this is the frame this week right so like let's let's level set here you know that like you you mentioned that you can't force these things but really the workplace is one of the few environments in which. Below are forced into these relationships right yeah. And so you know by their very nature these environments in the workplace are made up by a bunch of people from bunch different backgrounds diverse people many who might not actually have similar interests in real life. Or some that might not be actually interested in meeting or socializing outside of the workplace like like you said you know you can't force this thing people are different when they show up and a lot of times you know when interviews will try to get like a. A personality fit as well to see if they'll fit with the culture and you know I think. Basically if we break this down right. Thinking of from from the company's side. Their company's greatest asset is their employees and I think you know anyone who thinks otherwise this. Not running a great business and so. You have to approach this with the idea that not all these people are gonna work together. At 100 percent all the time right there there's going to be disagreements and there's going to be conflict and so. What you can do obviously is employed some of these factors psychology methods and so you know we'll kind of break this down in. A couple chunks I don't know do you wanna start with kind of what is is a positive relationship at work. Yeah I mean source look at this high level so psychologists have long identified that the design feel connected to the it is it is a bacon it's a basic human need is what we do as people and interpersonal relationships have a significant impact on mental health and health behavior physical health and mortality risk so. We categorize our relationships in the workplace Beloit corporation trust and fairness. When we do that the reward center the brain is activated encourages future direction to promote employee trust respect and confidence and that means employees believe that the best in each other and and and we want to inspire each other into into that performance so. To put it simply when employees experienced positive relationships the body's ability to maintain build and repair itself is is improved both in and out of the workplace so the psychology is that too so again proved a positive relationship so work are a good thing. Do you dive into a white so important for workplace yeah I'll just add to that last one it kind of reinforces the point that we're talking about with that with the main article of today's show you know that it's saying that if you bring home those positive experiences those positive relationships you're going to have a better home home life as well because you're not kind of worried about the same stressors at work of dealing with people so yeah let's let's look at some of these positive interactions. At the workplace and why it's so important right so you know you are. Sort of experiencing these varying and dynamic. Degrees of relationship you might have somebody that you really gel with and you can sit here and talk on a podcast for an hour and it's like you're talking your best friend and you know the shooting the **** just talking a podcast and then you have somebody else who is just absolutely grating to work with and you got a slog through every meeting and you dread those meetings so you're you have the spectrum of quality of people that you work with. And. And that's any interpersonal relationship that's outside of the workplace to you know obviously there are some people that you. Get along with better anyway it we're talking about just in the workplace here right and so if you think about it at the sort of one extreme of the spectrum the best side of things right interactions can be. Source of enrichment it can be give your vitality is kind of help you encourage individuals or groups or organizations really to thrive and flourish as you know as we're talking about in in with respect to this article you also have. Sort of these. These relationships are characterized as like a pursuit of rewarding and desirable outcomes right these at the best end of the spectrum at the other end of the spectrum the negative ones right you're kind of. These are characterized by. Thoughts of like being unwelcome or punishing to work with those types of people and so when we think about positive interactions in the workplace. You know it really does impact several things like job satisfaction. It actually really increases I guess it influences staff turnover rate so the more. Positive you see your co workers or the the more you see them like a family this is kind of my criticism at the top of this the less you're likely to turn over have turnover within the company right so met the more support you get from your colleagues the the more likely you're going to stay there for a long time. There's also you know some of these positive interactions between support of co workers they actually help with clarifying some tasks or improve other people's individual understanding of what their role is and so the more it all comes down that communication piece the more you can kind of. The the more you gonna communicate about what you are doing in your work place with somebody else that you're working with the better your performance will be right and that's kind of ultimately what we're talking about here is how. How how these relationships can improve human performance when it comes to workplace. So let's talk about it we're we're sort of looking at positive interactions here still. These things are marked by trust by mutual regard active engagement and interactions that are characterized this way can improve awareness of others foster positive emotions such as empathy compassion and increase the likelihood of trusting respectful engagement between individuals if it's not clear I'm reading this is from a paper from rose Aulus 2016. So go to go take a look at that but a lot of this is summarized in the statement that I just made and and with all these positive interactions right this can unsurprisingly leave sort of a detrimental effect on. An employee's well being social relationships at work that are disrespectful or. Distrustful kind of the other end of the spectrum right the the the negative actor so to speak. They they can have kind of the opposite impact there. And so you know the the last point here is that the more time that we spent. We had a lot of time at work and so we have to really think about the relationship ships that we have with others in the workplace to succeed. So I I don't know is there anything else you wanna add to this kind of long winded explanation of positive interactions at the workplace. I guess is just warm the sort of thing I think that we talk about a lot about positive relationships on. Productivity as are you I will post a performance we didn't actually hit on very much productivity consumed if everybody's having a good Lovin as a team that doesn't necessarily mean you mean you being massively productive because actually sometimes I have a connected back to. Some in the room as annoying as it can be can actually make you better at what you do no me it's it's an interesting thing to some extent so I've had where I've been working with sudden journey is and before they realize that I'm also an engineer and and we we we come across as you know Satan's routes and things like that in the room will you tell me what to do and so that you always have that playoff between each of the website actually going to use this to make was better and said that there is a bit of a you know not necessarily old negative response even know how to use it but I think there's a difference between get the productivity out of an organization I'm getting good keys and team work and working together I'm I mean I think when you look at how to foster employee interaction I think it's as I said before I don't think this is the thing you can you can't force people to like each other but you can create an environment that makes it more likely or at least get given the opportunities to do so you know giving people the opportunities to to actually chat with each other to have a brew with each other how about coffee tea you know have a breaks with the to the eat together that type of thing I'm. Thank you Lou colleagues word the number one country to full employment gate for employee engagement with some 7 percent respondents listing the workplace connections are a priority for where you're at I'm leaders and managers need to determine positive ways of engaging with them so relationships and I'm also been there before where I've worked in organizations whether I don't know you don't need to any of that no motivation I mean really example I I to team where we don't give them the you have a good time today right everybody W. doing that's going to catch a break. 10 minutes just banter in the in the coffee and I I got pulled aside by senior manager said you can't do that said that that the not working and that means not working hard enough and and another well not really because we with with Russian Underwood within it within an inch of their lives mmhm this is my call I want to do this you can't do that okay doesn't meet the above be honest I think productivity will go down I think I don't think we'll get a good amount of it. Yes we had a little discussion about and I think it's it's important trying created so you have think this you you go to work after that I think you've got to allow it to happen basically removing the battery is the limit social interactions and it does it does hold sway the what they can be everything from home you know how you are you plan out an office how you weigh you cycle teams in that type thing we will create opportunities for employees to engage each other and again this whole which ways of making that happen everything's rolm you know just having dropping days having. Breakout rooms that you encourage people to go have coffees and things like that so yes I think I think it's something that that does need to be done have you any thoughts around well if the if you had a. And it employee interaction if almost all of the you didn't think was good enough all a really good example of good practice so good good questions yeah my experience that this has been wide ranging so I think when you build it into work it works well. Like for me I make a point to spend about 10 percent of my time so if it's an hour long meeting at 6 minutes. Catching up with the person and really starting to like develop a relationship with them right so like and I think that's really important too because then you come from a place of understanding with who you're working with you understand kind of what is going on in their personalized gives you awareness that if there is something going on in their personal lives maybe get him a little slack right especially with the state of the world right now I work at a global company and so there's a lot of people affected by what's going on by world events and so. You know I might say Hey look like it's totally fine you don't need to get any nothing's urgent right like you take care of you first it's something really important to do so 10 percent of your time I'd say that's a good baseline if you're working you know a 40 hour work week 4:00 hours a week you know that's. D. that's old themes like a lot of time for a productivity standpoint but if you are kind of investing in those relationships. I think it's totally totally worth it in terms of my experience with this like it's like I said when it when it happens at work when it's built in it is pretty great when it's forced outside of work hours like Hey let's go out for a happy hour afterwards and we only got a 2 hour commute I gotta get home like I don't I don't want to see here because if I sit here I I leave early because I have a commute and I come in early because I have a commute I want to sit here and might have to wait you know 3:00 hours in traffic state of the normal 1.5 like. Let me go and eat it eat it really kind of limits I'm. You're sort of interactions like wise if you're like work travel I don't know if that's the technically could all be considered work but. I don't know yet like if you're going to lunch with everybody that's fine but like. Thanks at night I like it it's fine but. At the same time maybe I just want to sit in my hotel room don't put the don't you know don't put the I guess stress on me to make that decision like. I don't know it varies and you know I can I can I can love the people that I'm hanging out with. But just I don't. I wanna hang out my hotel room like can we just hang out no telling out like. I don't want to go out and do that like I just seems like a hassle we got to find a uber we gotta go find a bar we get to get a coke go to the thing and yet it could be fun and it is fun most of the time but again like what if I just wanna hang out my hotel room and watched you know the local news because that some you don't get everywhere anyway that's right that's my $0.2. Yes right and it's one of the things well especially doing long term book with people so you know we saw some business quick business trip fine yeah you gonna do that maybe one night or something like that I went through a stage what it was 5 years I was on on this comment and they see 3 nights a week we're expected to because I was with senior management you know that they will go out any that best restaurants and all this other stuff and I was expected to join them all the time I was like. Okay last night was fine tonight's getting the force tomorrow night as well Jeez yeah week after week after week after week and yeah I would I felt like I was a work from home you know we I stopped 6 of the morning and then you were out with them and in the evening until 10:00 at night and then back at 6:06 in the morning and you like while that that Fulham days but as he is a junior member junior member the tiles that well should be I I have to do this if I'm going to go out to succeed him and I was like in hindsight I wish I just announce that you know what you going do you do you. I'm going to go and do something else okay yeah well I mean yeah when you're junior to you have that FOMO fear of missing out and it's like well do I need to be there because they need to advance my career somehow so I need to make these connections and I need to I need to be there need to showcase and yeah you're right it's just like you what are you missing. And so like I I agree and. I'm glad you said the dinner stink because like sometimes I just wanna pocket my per diem and you think even on older whatever. I don't even have to dinner with the all I wanna just you know I mean this is the date this is a a thing that I think. We always put it on the on the employee or the at the junior person to say on a you should you should use to have the the guts to stand up and say no no I don't want to go outside it's fine actually knows leaders issue of the highlights of realizing that maybe the person is that because they think that they have to be there to impress you not because of that they actually want to be that why don't you turn around that that you guys going to I'm gonna go do something else you guys gone I'm so tired by selves do what what is your date I let them do it they don't they don't necessarily want to be there you go back in because I feel like they have to be in the. I know right I did not to death yeah so I mean I I think we talked a little bit about planning sort of these collaborative events right I mean my role like I said was 10 percent of the time if you build it into the work week you know an hour long social a week where you just kind of decompress I think I could be really beneficial you know the rest of the 3:00 hours spend it you know at the beginning of meetings or some other like I said 10 percent done take much. I think you know people will appreciate that too. Set aside that time for employees interacting you mention leadership and I I do want to talk about leading by example because you are a leader. Hopefully. Yeah you're right and it's you have to I think a lot of people think that the whole leadership thing it's just a natural thing people do buy suppose this at all it's all still there you have to work at it nobody has even me I don't think I'm a perfectly that I know that's hard to believe but you know I mean it's if you go to work and you're going to be reflective and you get things wrong you gotta be able to go back in and sit and wait you know actively be reflecting on what are people telling me. What are people saying and what people actually actually say when the water actually telling me do they actually want to come out and do stuff or not other do the feel like they have to do it and and things like that so you go to be you could be aware of the team and it doesn't just happen. Yeah that I don't know do we want to talk about the model I think it's it's kind of interesting so there's this model called her about a P. E. R. M. A.. And it kinda highlights 5 of these critical elements for mental well being right we talk about mental wellbeing couple weeks ago so this is a good tie into that I think it's good to have right and so you think about this from a from a business perspective from a company perspective from a workplace perspective you know you can think about these leaders implementing something like this to have a positive culture that encourages that belonging. And so when we talk about perma it's an it's an acronym that stands for positive emotion that's the P. E. when you have E. is for engagement and then you have. M. is for meaning a is for achieving accomplishment there's a second PM there. So I don't I don't know it's the 5 elements of Burma modeler positive emotion engagement positive relationships meaning and achievement or accomplishment I'm not sure what they are is supposed to be relationships maybe. Since August of nature yeah there you go they got. The firm a model can we can we get a source. Get a paper on that so so if you think about that and and sort of implement these things making sure the people are happy at work making sure they're engaged with others making sure that they have positive relationships with the people that they work for making sure that their work feels like they're working on something important I think it's a big one right a lot of people kind of lose sight of what they're doing and that you could really make a difference and then sort of achievement and accomplishment that is a whole separate conversation for a different time but just making sure that people feel like they're accomplishing something or achieving some of their personal or professional goals. So what's the take home message of all this berry. Fundamentally any and every organization or individual can encourage decent. I'm positive employee interaction by developing an inclusive workplace culture and everybody can do that everybody can contribute towards that promote positive social interactions social good workplace relationships they could all be a source of individual collective growth learning a flourishing you can foster the environment to make it happen you can't force it to make it happen you gotta work with what you got keep your eyes open and it's a it's a life active thank you it doesn't you go to work at. I'm pretty confident that it's a good thing if you can make it happen. Yeah so in terms of through the lens of this article of creativity at at work right I think I think ultimately all these things that we just talk about our feeding into sort of the resourcefulness and innovation that this article is talking about if you sort of have the support network at work you are much more likely to sort of experience this. These innovative ideas and resourcefulness that work based on you know being comfortable with the people that you're working with and I think. I think you know with that makes sense right yeah I mean we we talked about. I feel like we talked about this a while ago right did does sort of what is what fosters innovation right we ultimately. What ultimately it comes down to is this leadership and I think a lot of that comes with interpersonal relationships at work right up for everyone's references what I'm talking about here is episode 224 we're talking about specifically remote working fostering innovation but really that whole conversation was about leadership so go listen to that one if you're interested in that conversation. Very any closing thoughts on on workplace relationships as it relates to creativity or anything like that. I think that what you just said is absolutely true in that if you do this right then yes it can promote creativity and innovation however if the roles on creative on innovative then you're not going to get anything for free it doesn't create it just it fosters and allows it doesn't drop it so yes go make it happen. Thank you to our patrons and everyone who voted on Twitter for selecting our topic this week and thanks to our friends over at the university of bath once again for a new story this week do you want to follow along we do post links to all the original articles on our weekly round ups you can find those on our blog also join us on our discord if you want to talk more about these topics and how your workplace experience has been thus far we're gonna need to take a quick break we'll be back to see what's going on in human factors community right after this human factors cast brings you the best in human factors news interviews conference coverage and overall fun conversations into each and every episode we produce but we can't do it without you. 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So you can actually where our favorite review of the show as merchandise and just for everyone's awareness the review reads as such like so like you like and like so do you want to listen to a couple sophomoric boring Brose drone on this is for you that some of these guys could in any way represent human factors as a profession is truly terrifying so that is our favorite review please go support the show by buying merch of that review. We love that review and if you will if you disagree with that review please leave us when that doesn't say that. It will really help the show anyway let's move on and say do you agree with that meanwhile. Yeah we do move move on otherwise I think it's time that we get into this next part of the show we like to call. All right let's switch gears it came from this is where to stop mark rose break down all over the internet. It was all over the internet to bring your topics that the communities talking about if you find any of these answers useful give us a like or if you're watching to help other people find these answers. So the first one to night is how do you know the human factors for you we're starting off with one from the human factor sub reddit this is by. He M. S. shall love him as a love. I'm gonna say that wrong I'm really sorry. Hello everyone are there any sort of indicators or experiences you've experienced in your duration of study or at work when you realized human factors was the field for you and I think one thing very that we can do here is kind of like what is our origin story what got us into the field you know that kind of thing. Because we host a podcast on human factors and we realize that every week I don't know what. When did you discover human factors and when did you realize it was for you so I didn't realize it but I first discovered human factors when I'll do Maloney and come degree in,nd control engineering when I was doing a module on U. I design and and I was like it just felt like you so intuitive to me that I kind of knew where things should go what they should do you will more a decent you why should look like so that was nice this first sort of exposure to a broad think wait read became troll was after all it was my first industrial job actually went into their space company to be a software engineer in that copy group for for the service based company so they were doing future you why designs and I was just there to to code them up. And I was sort of getting getting into so I was you I was one of 2 software engineers and the. The rest the team were doing design and also sort of moved into this and I was like come up with my own designs for interfaces and realizing that that was completely stupid but the more I was learning the Mars I hope this is you know that learning more about the geology and and all and the psychology behind how things work and even little things like how to design things for color blindness and and also stuff it was all just all coming together and I was like this is it I mean I need to everything I've been doing today is just been. Felt like turning the handle where's this felt inspirational. And and so I spoke to my lemons with the time a and also made a cold and stuff I do I do what is this what is this human factor stuff you talk about what is the best of it and she said well if you're wanting to learn more about you know I commend to you a basin and so we did that and then. It kind of then accelerated from there I got made redundant from that role. The enticing factors peas goat maybe didn't notice me and then I went to another company where I actually went and applied that was human factors around and as it may in into the human factors about the research comments on the light yes but I'll be working with them already so so they knew me and knew that well my background was exceptionally circles could come along and then stick with them for 8 years just learned it hoovered up information then your bags of baggage rolled experiences all of doubling the human factors design and them and then yeah it was sort it but it was not it I think in that moment of knowing that actually what I was looking at was just intuitive to me was something that it just made sense that wears I could code I could do a lot of stuff that was fine I was kind of doing that because I felt I shouldn't and I have to where's developments design will give up thinking about how people interact with it would just seem to be like well duh and it was almost a shock when you then look at other people go what what did you think like this isn't this is common sense and then that's the stuff the sparkle Momentive actually yet common sense isn't ubiquitous. It's just common sense yeah so under wraps in that yes quite concert way depends where you look doesn't it yeah. What are you wait when did you get that Spock live the human factors was the thing yeah I wanna I wanna mention something because you mentioned mentorship and I do want to kind of again call out our discord. There's a lot of us in there kind of that are willing to provide mentorship and like seriously I'm I'm happy to provide that for anyone who wants to I can take a few people under my wing and cannot tell you how the real world is and all that stuff. Please reach out to us on the discord or anything like that like and it's it's one professional joy that I get a lot of things a lot of satisfaction out of anyway with that in a way I'm I've told this story before the show but I think it bears repeating because. Not everybody listens every episode so. For me kind of the thing that I thought was the moment it clicked wise you know I went to grad school for something very different than human factors I went because I wanted to study V. R. and our perception of virtual environments and. Use kind of cognitive psychology to understand that and the person that I want to work with was in a human factors graduate program and so a lot of my training and skill set came from kind of the periphery of what I was studying at the time and. For me the moment came when you know in undergrad I was interacting with a lot of people who want to go to clinical route and there were very few kind of cognitive people in that group and I was more of a social. Psychology you know it perspective at that time and still carry a lot of that with me today obviously with messaging and communication and so. For me it was when I got to my graduate program and a lot of people were speaking the same language as me. And I'm not just talking about English I'm talking about you know I could say terminology that I that maybe others and undergrad wouldn't understand right something like like I. P. D. N. D. N. R. pupillary distance by the way forward for. You know the things that I was studying and people would just understand I didn't have to stop and explain it to them and I had done you know some preliminary research on human factors before I got there I thought yes this is interesting but when I got into that program that's when I was like okay you know this is this is awesome and I might not need to do our VR or I could do you know V. are in that space but I'm. So so for me it was like when people started speaking the same language and that was really when I was like okay yes this is this is it this is the thing I want to do because the. All are talking in a way that is it you know I I I mean I I don't sound crazy over here like the psychologist. Who's who's trying to explain human behavior because they just get it. And the fact that I could you know sit and chat with all of them and and they got excited about it and I got excited about it by turn in turn you know I think that's what did it for me. All right let's move on to this next one here this one is is an undergraduate certificate in human computer interaction worth it this is from the H. C. I. sub reddit this is by Jair _ 80 what is the likelihood that I would be able to get a job with the undergraduate certificate I work in the veterinary research field and have an associates but I'm considering switching career fields currently employed by a university that offers an undergraduate H. C. I. A. certificate and my tuition would be discounted so I figured it might be advantageous to pursue. Also considering taking a web mobile development boot camp should pursue that over an HCI certificate berry what's your thoughts on certifications and degrees and boot camps and all that stuff let's let's kind of use that as the frame yeah I think it well that what was the button it depends doesn't it what is the what do you want to do what you want to be when you grow up does it but fundamentally does the content of the X. I. calls excite you it makes you do it if you think it's just there in all its boring in a broadcast of get the end of it don't do it because he's not being if if you're doing it just to as it is that they should and you could be vaguely interesting than than crackled but I think certificates in the art reading you know base the whole degree calls all that sort of doing a formal approach to human factors and all it in its entirety certainly getting the good academic grounding is is really good it's really up until you just there is if you know it's what you want to do in the future that it will save you a lot of time learning after the fact learning on the job is great but it's not I think there is if you can have some of them them underpinning concepts it saves you a lot of time the long term. That said I did none of that all my work to be picked up on the job pretty much and on my own self study and practice in thanks so it's possible and and now why would my own company doing it so I have a message. So once I think if you've got the option to do it and being a few Bucks but I'm taking it C. I. person I I'm I'm quite partial design in your device that's where my love lies if I don't if I had the option to do that when I was younger I would give. Going back in time to what I know now I would absolutely go go ahead do it. But you go did you go to do you at this point in time you don't know what you can do in the future go we will go with what what one spy is you walk what drives you a bit of if it's inspiring do it if it's not don't force yourself because is absolutely no point. Thank tell me tell me amounted to what what would Jesus. So look I'm. I'm gonna say this I'm I'm a little critical of boot camps. I think in a way they could they could be a good way to get your feet wet so to speak if you are interested in it and want to experience some of what that is like that could be a good opportunity for you although I do struggle with that a little bit because. I think this is this is my opinion. And I think the boot camps are created by people who want your money because they want you to take a quick and easy route which by the way there is none. I'm. To to get to the place that you want to be and is that gonna take place at school I mean like you could certainly get the experience at a job that you're on the job experience that is one way to go about it you also frame your research your research in the backfield right about like you know you've you've done the work you've done human factors but for pets like there's there's ways to like frame it and you know you can understand you could I don't know. You could spend it to the point where you could almost get a job depending on how you spend your research or your your past experience but might my ultimate point here's I'm critical boot camps they are a great way to get your feet wet but not the end all be all for. For training and I think you know E. ours talk about when we can versus many many months and years of of school or on the job experience I think there's a very different. The skill set that you get from both of those right and so you might take several boot camps and be down several $0 but you know other people who have names in the field are much more richer because they've taken your money so I don't I I don't know I'm like that's kind of my thoughts on it. So you can join my boot camp starting next week and. Input cost technology center as long as you can see exactly exactly. Anyway that's that's my $0.2 on it the last one here what what's the best and worst you axe you experience this week and why this is by nasdaq Ian on the user experience sub reddit they they have provided examples here. There were there is was a covert test.gov it was sort of the easiest government site they had ever used to steps less than 30 seconds to complete their goal the worst was H. B. O. Max. The information hierarchy is awful an incredibly difficult to change seasons and episodes especially when the already viewing one so Barry what is your favorite you ex you experience this week and what is your least favorite I think my favorite has to be. What is my friend actually my favorite has to be my washing machine this week which I'm moving from one place to another and actually the ability to switch off on okay good all squared away was surprisingly simple mostly below and I've I've seen people do before so that was fine the the worst one I've done this week is I've been playing around with some of 20 devices try to code buttons up into them and things like that and finding the item into doing the coding we got it I'm just putting in a while but this wasn't tree cutting it was quite simple but just the. Do some frustrating elements to it way the the intuitive nous was lost outputs like third one in the on the negative which is which I'm gonna sort I'm as a prime because every time it would you want to save it on Amazon prime you have to put the pin code in for the extraction of your own Netflix you'd put in months a big goes and streams you think with the right you have to put in every single time and that's really irritating. So that's annoying what are you what's what's your. Today what's your best to assist you at he works even experienced. The I I'm gonna this is gonna be a couple weeks span so it's not just today or this week but I need your help weeks right so I will save for my dentist I was able to fill out all my information ahead of time and type it all up. And really sort of just get ahead of the curve and you know fill out all that information ahead of time typing it up which is great. By contrast went to the dentist with my son this morning and my wife had to write out everything manually so I didn't experience it but I saw her hand cramping and. So I I'm gonna go with that I'm gonna go with the ease of being able to type up ahead of time everything that you need to put in information wise and not have to yeah it's that that's kind of the best and worst I've experienced this week and is very convenient to have everything kind of. Sent to you in a link where you can just fill it out. Very different experiences. All right let's get into this last part of the show needs no introduction is just one more thing berry what is your one more thing this week so my woman thing this week I went on holiday last week which was amazing but this is really frustrating thank walls we have this hope and cook it system that just took forever to use it was calm come hard with long presses shell presses you it was there was no continuity between where you have to press if you like so the last touch screen thing. And from there just to help thinking go yeah you be opposed to this and discord I was gonna say because I put it on this call to try and see if I was going out to meet with the people that have that body it was just this idea and I guess fundamentally all I go missing into all the appliances in my kitchen notwithstanding what you said about the. Washing machine okay but fundamentally a lot of the these appliances they just don't seem 12 human factors are you X. people involved you seem to have such a combination of weed push buttons in some you know that calm checks and stuff you have to do there seems to be no continuity between either on the machine themselves all across kitchens with it with I guess I guess a couple of notable exceptions some yeah why don't planes manufactures employee direct people and if you do why in not doing more about this because I'm finding it very frustrating. Thanks for the help of my little bit therapy neck with him I'll put but no the plants companies out on blast well we we talk a little bit about this in the pre show I've had a couple really busy days or last like week point 5 and. Met with some challenging technical issues as well as some other things in my personal life and so I'm going on my own holiday this weekend taking an extended weekend we 4 days I mean that's not much but it's like well needed you know I I think it's just I don't really have anything else to say other than wow sometimes just things are rough and I'm glad that we fix the technical issues and I'm happy to say that because we're here at the end of the show and that's it for today one. If you like this episode and enjoy some of the discussion around especially innovation and fostering creativity in the workplace encourage you all to go listen to episode 224 does remote working foster innovation you can call it whatever you're listening with what you think the story this week 4 into that in depth discussion will invite you to our discord community where we can talk ad nauseam about some of these issues you know you always visit our official website sign up for our newsletter stay up to date with all the latest impactors news you like what you hear once for the show you leave us a review don't say it's 2 sophomore grows just talking about and that were you know sorry excuses of impact officials. You may. Or do I don't know and give us another shared idea. You tell your friends about us that help the show grow you always consider supporting us on Patreon that really helps the show because if they put the stuff behind the scenes as always likes all over socials and website the description of this episode along with public to the. What Mr very curvy for being on the show today work our listeners going find you they wanna talk about creativity if you want but creatively confinement Twitter I'm a bass and disco que all come listen to my list of latest murmurings on public to human expo constant excise it 12 to 12 to focused adult cold as for me I've been has the chrome you can find me across social media at Nick _ Rome thanks again for tuning in human factors cast until next time. It depends.